For people who enjoy profession-based endgame, I saw during the first weeks of the expansion that min-maxing professions to make money was actually cool.
There are players who focus solely on professions, so for them, it’s essentially an endgame pillar. Professions as they are now are far better for those players than the old-school profession system was.
It’s more engaging and more time-consuming, which is a good thing because if you enjoy profession crafting and gathering, you wouldn’t be happy with the old-school system anymore.
TWW has already dumbed down professions for casual players.
But whats the point with system with various paths that we fill with skill points to make full circle with some skill system if we eventually can have all. So whats the choise or the purpose with any of this. Its same if we had huge amount talents but could also pick all of them, the design would lose purpose.
I think ppl are confused with this that why it has to be so busy. I dont understand it but Im truely happy for ppl who enjoy professions and find the mmo aspect with them. Df and tww made me not level any professions at all, I lost all interest after seen the new systems and I truely enjoy professions in mmo but this felt too much for me beside playing pvp for example.
It achieves two purposes:
For one, it adds a timegate, giving a sense (although false) of meaning to be more engaged with the game for a longer period of time. The other part is like what Jóóló and that Russian (they are called Russian realms, so it’s not wrong to assume initially that it’s a Russian player, inb4 Eastern Europeans complains about it being assumed at first glance) talked about:
or in other words, it impacts the perceived value of engaging with it as a system where it artificially trims down the amount of competition in the economy to be crafting the items early on.
Yea, thats the reason why I drop them too. I realised its just a time sink and the sense of having some choise with the skill upgrade paths to make the circles were false if we can just have all eventually. Its meh cause I really liked professions since vanil. Df and tww I just didnt level any. And to be fair no profession work in rated so its also bit lackluster how little we are given for professions for pvp. I remember in vanil engineering and alchemy had huge impact on the game and now just nothing. Nothing is enabled in rated pvp, so my motivation for this increased time sink on the system is minimal to begin with.
They would still be part of the wow economy, even if players wouldn’t be required to learn about the intricacies of the profession system. You could even keep the exact same system, make it as complex as you want it to be, but limit it to cosmetics - and it’d still count as part of the economy.
The issue lies in that part about needing to learn about it for the sake of getting into the scene.
Well, I am truely happy for any who find professions still fun and that they are even part of this mmo at all anymore. I find them too big of a time sink and too much put on the skill systems considering that we can just eventually have all anyway and that they also have disabled every profession from rated pvp so I have very little motivation to spend alot time and effort on engineering for example if I cant use any of the time investment in the content I play.
The issue lies in that part about needing to learn about it for the sake of getting into the scene.
Learning about how your class/spec plays is also part of getting into the scene, and a way more major part to boot. So is learning about gear and what is BiS and why it is BiS. It’s a game with subsystems that you need to learn to play it, as are…most games, really.
And having professions was always a boost to your potential performance, at least early on in any expansion, and sometimes for much longer. Remember TBC and crafted BoP weapons that were pretty good if not BiS for PvP, for instance? Not sure if any expac after TBC had as much of a focus, I remember WotLK not really being great at that, and Cata increasing Alchemy moneymaking potential yet again by introducing a two-seater mount made with Alchemy only (had a friend make several hundreds of thousands gold making those early on in Cata even after the reagents).
That is an individual problem, not an issue with the profession system.
I have no problem understanding how it works.
Ingenuity is a very easy mechanic to understand.
Patron Orders are also very easy to grasp.
Knowledge Points are simple to understand.
Professions nowadays even tell you where to find materials and recipes, which is another plus.
If someone is struggling to understand how professions work, I suggest reading about them on Google or watching an explanation on YouTube instead of demanding another system change due to individual misunderstandings.
But hey, they already dumbed down professions from Dragonflight to The War Within, so expect the same thing to happen in Midnight.
Sooner or later, we’ll end up with the same issue we had with the old profession system boring and useless professions.
That’s a whole lot of whataboutism fallacies right there. They’re not relevant for this topic which is about the current profession system. (Responding to the Russian.)
According to a quick google search, I can tell you right now that I’m not the only one. Also:
That’s a different issue, and a hypothetical one at that. The issue now, is how it bars you from getting into the scene.
You flagrantly showing off how you haven’t even read the OP, is very disconcerting.
I don’t disagree with your OP, but it does provide one (though whether it’s meaningful or not is up to every player) significant difference: You can have someone else make you a BoP item. You can also not provide mats and have someone craft it anyway (at least ppl made that complaint often during dragonflight, bc they couldn’t be bothered actually looking at their screen before pressing the button)
As for the dragonriding/skyriding: You should have the ability to Switch Flight Style - it’s in the general tab of your spellbook under Skyriding.
Should steady flight be the default? Yes, especially since lots of ppl seem to think this is the “worse” flight form, but at least now we can change back to it.
Change that P to an E, and it’s exactly the same outcome.
You can say it’s like the P isn’t really a P in that acronym.
Yeah I know, but before the campaign was finished, the option to swap to steady flight was completely disabled. You had to finish the campaign to get the ability to use steady flight. I just really wish they could do what Dungone mentioned:
It was like that since the beginning of the game, so that isn’t something unique to this profession system. Just mentioning it because it falls under the domain of how it doesn’t provide any meaningful difference compared to the original BoE crafts.
I get that you pointed it out because I mentioned this in the OP:
but I can’t be including every variation in everything I write, or else the posts would become even longer, so I’m trying to trim it down to what’s necessary for the context, although I’m aware that I often fail at it. I apologize, I’m not good at balancing it properly.
My points are relevant, though? Professions are a subsystem of this game. It did get a bit more complex in DF/TWW.
You seem to be overestimating how much of a difference they make, though. How do they really bar you from “getting into the scene”? You can get gear without them, you can pay people to craft gear for you without using professions yourself, you can frankly ignore professions and still do perfectly fine in any content of your choosing.
There are minor benefits to having certain professions in certain dungeons, but they are activated through having 25 in the current profession, which takes maybe a thousand gold and ten minutes to get. And they’re different every time - Herbalism in Mists, Engineering in CoT, etc, so you might as well as disregard them or just pick up a couple and hope next season has something for you (I’d be surprised if Engineering doesn’t do anything in S2).
As for “if it’s all the same as before, then why the added complexity?”, I and other people have given you a reason - artificial scarcity during the early months of an expansion. You might not consider it valuable, but some people do. There’s also the added tradeoffs for consumables - don’t put top-tier enchants on armor you’ll be replacing within a week, don’t use up gold-quality potions and flasks for midcore content, all that stuff.
These days, it’d be sold on the auction house by the dozen rather than requested directly. Vanilla times are long gone. There’s a notable difference between that and personal orders on a bigger scale, even if you don’t feel it yourself.
For instance, it makes things actually easier for crafters, because people come to you with mats and stuff, rather than you having to get mats and craft and put it up hoping it actually sells and nets you some profit… Whereas the current system pretty much assures that the crafter profits from the transaction, and sometimes you generate income by repeat customers or maybe even people referred to you by a previous customer. I’ve had that happen a couple times, feels nice.
Completely irrelevant to the topic, since it has zero impact on anything mentioned here. I’m good at playing all the classes as several specs on each, except for rogue and evoker. I refuse to give evoker a try, and I’ve never been good at playing as a rogue.
It has zero relevance to the topic at hand, which is about the current profession system.
Again, zero relevance. It doesn’t affect the profession system at all, and is irrelevant to the topic.
Broad statement that can’t be applied to how the issue is with one specific subsystem.
Again, irrelevant to the topic at hand, because it’s not comparable to the current profession system. How it was like to put a whirlwind axe together for example, has absolutely nothing to do with what it’s like now with the overhauled profession system as it is like currently. They’re different systems.
Ergo, whataboutism fallacies. They’re irrelevant.
Seems like you as well haven’t read the OP nor the thread very thoroughly.
I never claimed you can’t do it purely performance-wise. But good luck getting an invite or starting a group for it. Make a new account, level it to max, skip professions (which includes crafting orders) and try your luck at the part where you’re supposed to enter the PvE scene. Don’t mention you’ve got any exp. Even if you already got exp, just don’t mention it when trying to get into the groups and raids for it.
Lemme knows how it goes for you, ok? I’m looking forward to finding out how it’ll go for you.
You’ll need to actually read the OP, the thread, each and every word posted, to find out why I’m phrasing it all like this. Because you clearly haven’t done that thus far.
That isn’t what the thread is about, at all. You’re just showing how you haven’t read the OP nor the thread properly.
Yes, I know. But it comes with detrimental consequences, as explained in the OP and in this thread. I’ve also already covered alternatives if you for some reason are just in with the artificial complexity, where it won’t affect players who aren’t interested in learning about the professions and just wants what is needed to play:
Again, read the OP and the thread. Even that same post you quoted has it covered. People could always give you mats to craft things. People could always pay you commissions to craft things.
As for that referral stuff, good for you. Totally makes every single problem already explained in posts which you apparently haven’t read, worth it. Although it was also always possible since the beginning of the game. The system’s design has only added layers of complexity completely inorganically, for no meaningful difference nor reason.
There is nothing in it that can’t be adopted to a more organic and intuitive design.
I’ve skipped more than a decade of WoW, came back in TWW on a fresh account without anything, etc. I’ve cleared Heroic Palace on both Rogue and Warrior and have almost all 10s timed on Rogue. By the time I actually bothered to make professions do anything, I had mostly mid-Champion gear with a couple Hero pieces from delves and normal raid and lower keys and vault. The first time you start “needing” profession gear is to get some 636 pieces with your Gilded crests (which you obtain from 8+ keys and two last Heroic raid bosses, so basically you’ve already made it way into the “scene”) because Hero gear doesn’t quite compare and access to Mythic gear is limited to Mythic raid and/or M+ vault.
At no point professions were anywhere required to make headway into PvE. Not sure about PvP, I never got into it, maybe PvP does really need crafted gear to even start out, in which case, my condolences, that’s kinda bad.
No, I’m pointing out the only thing that professions provide that is harder to replace in terms of “unique perks”. People prefer to do Mists with a Herbalist or a Fae member, because it’s easier to route and gets you some buffs. Same for CoT and Engi/Rogues (note how both things have alternative means of accessing the benefits, still).
Note that Could. But if the system were to be set up currently like it was in Vanilla (or in a different manner but also doing things the way you have mentioned), they wouldn’t or would do so very rarely, because the path of least resistance for the majority would be to go on the AH and buy a thing off there unless exorbitantly priced. The current system, however, encourages and perhaps even softly enforces a more direct sort of interaction, which I consider to be a good thing.
Is the current system more complex and time-consuming for both the crafter and the recipient of the craft? Yes (though I would argue that it’s not much more so). But does it provide better outcomes for the crafter? Also yes. Whereas your proposition seemingly brings us back to the era of AH gambling and making meager profits unless you’re a one-man trade empire that can corner the market and control the prices (to be fair, I know a couple people like this, one made it to the gold cap some time before WoD).
So my point is that there is a meaningful difference between the old and the new system. You either don’t care for it or genuinely can’t see it, but it’s there and it has several meaningful distinctions.
How did it go with the invites during the time you were building up your character, prior to getting anything crafted via crafting orders?
This was never specifically about having professions per se, it was about how to get the crafted gear (usually by getting the professions), and how even the crafting orders suffers from the same issue of artificial complexity.
There are other ways to design paths of profitability without forcibly jamming it into the progression system.
Timegating has always been part of the game. The artificial complexity is the worst it has ever been though, specifically speaking about the profession system.
You need to stop thinking about whether it’s profitable or not. It was never about the profitability of it. The economic aspect to it was never relevant to the topic of this thread.
Which, again, can be achieved without forcibly jamming it into the PvE progression. Although even if you want it to be included in the PvE progression, but dislike the AH gambling as you called it, then fact is that while the AH gambling was perfect for people who doesn’t want to get into it all, it would still run dry when the demand exceeded the supply.
So when the demand exceeded the supply, people would get their own mats and look for crafters on their own. But the people who doesn’t want to get into the design of the system, then they could still aim for getting their hands on a BoE sold somewhere by using the currency as incentive for someone to handle it all for them.
Now however, you have to get into the design of the system, which therein lies the problem.
For low-mid (+6/7 and below) keys, it was fine. I think the most trouble I had getting into a key would be the point where I was doing 9s and 10s on my Rogue (meta spec, my behind), but that was way after I started using crafting, and way later into the season. Warrior had no real trouble getting into keys (as DPS, not tank) around October and November. For raids, it was even simpler, I got into a guild in late September, did some normal runs with them, then we did Heroic and cleared it in early December.
I think the first crafted thing I got on him was a 636 axe when I’d already gotten to +8s and my guild was killing Silken Court more or less reliably while wiping on Ansurek, so that’s the end of November, the start of December. Everything else seemed like a waste of time/effort because I could just as easily take a Champion/Hero item and get it to 619. On Rogue I could start with a 619 dagger, because by then I got free crests from rep, but Warrior had to do without, and it was just fine.
In which case, what is exactly the complexity? Functionally, it’s about the same interface you’d have to work with if crafting through trade to someone. You’d still have to get the right missive for stats, crest for ilvl, slot upgrade, that sort of thing, because those are just a function that is available, and likely not having them would make crafting worse (like having to have several recipes per item for various levels or stats, or just not having items progress properly - you’d have a basic 606 starter item that is outdated in about a week because delves exist). UI-wise, it seems to me that it’d be hard to make it better in any way while retaining the same usefulness for crafted items.
Would the complexity just be finding a person to craft stuff? Because that seems to be the main difference here.
Generally with AH it’s the other way around - supply exceeds the demand somewhat, and this drives prices down until they reach the point that you’re crafting for maybe 10% margin. In fact, enchanting and alchemy still behave along similar principles - people use silver or copper mats plus concentration (which is strictly time-gated) to make it profitable
And this is what you’re not considering despite it being important. It might not be relevant to your experience, but it’s one of the important reasons why things are currently like this and not like in vanilla and why it is generally, though not universally, considered an improvement. For crafters, this is a superior system. For most end consumers (note that they also might be crafters, those are not exclusive groups), it’s not worse or potentially even better than the previous system.
Only if you craft. If you don’t, you just buy mats and ask around for a person to do it for you for a fee, which is about the same complexity as it ever was except you have to handle one more UI window? Since we seem to both agree that you don’t have to craft to take advantage of the system, I would assume that isn’t your issue.
The only thing not currently possible is going to an AH and buying the desired item. If that’s the core of your gripe, well,
As for having to engage with the system just to start doing PvE and progress, I wouldn’t agree. Especially before the buffs to crest availability (paying 90 gilded for a 636 was really only worth it for weapons most of the time, or if you were just swimming in Gilded with nothing to spent it on, so 626 capped with no Mythic access). Champion gear is just so easily available and upgradeable even at the start of a season that the only reason to get crafted items is for Ascendance procs until you can afford a Myth-level crafted item with Gilded, and that is only due to how hard Mythic gear is to access without a stable Mythic raid, rather than crafting being mandatory.
Replace the stats missives with a simple dropdown menu, whatever is timegated can be timegated to simply 1 craft for the same duration as what it’s like now to get whatever mats that is, and whatever else can be streamlined down to the simplest forms of input like for example a dropdown menu when applicable. If it needs something to be cleared or done first, then include that as a prerequisite for it as well, specified in clear text in the game’s interface that “You need to do X first” for example. For placing crafting orders to get it, that is.
Why would there be a need to make different versions of the same items to be different patterns/plans? Again, just turn it into dropdown menus with options, and with that it would already reduce the artificial complexity.
That is another example of artificial complexity. The comparison to simply buying a BoE item normally from AH, shows an entire layer of added artificial complexity for no meaningful difference since it could all be done before but without the current limitations caused by the current system.
That depends entirely on the design of the crafts. For example, as you yourself have mentioned, as well as what that Etly and Jóóló mentioned earlier, is that the rarity of it increases the profitability, in the way that the profession system limits you to the path you choose and so you can’t craft everything from the beginning, which in turn reduces the amount of supply to meet the demand.
That can be achieved in any way imaginable, without this artificial complexity. The first example of it in the game, which you yourself have referenced, was stuff like master swordsmith, axesmith, so on and so forth, because it reduced the competition due to how people split their professions into different paths that tied them to those paths.
None of which required the artificial complexity that exists in the current profession system.
There are other ways to reduce the supply to meet demands, but the point remains the same. None of it requires the artificial complexity that currently exists in the game.
I didn’t say it isn’t important. I said it isn’t relevant to this topic. Because it isn’t relevant. It’s an unrelated issue, as outlined in the previous paragraph.
No, there is a lot more artificial complexity involved, which you can check signsofkelani’s video or any guide online about it, to see how each step they go through, is completely meaningless to achieve the outcome that could be achieved so much simpler and more streamlined if the design would trim down the needless .
That’s another problem. Right now you’ve got crafting orders, but no advertisements by crafters, because it’s all BoP(although it’s more like an E except not exactly), and afaik they haven’t created a similar interface where the customer can pick the seller’s offered service.
It’d also help streamline and simplify this by a lot if something like that existed.
Alright, thank you for sharing your experience with that. Although the fact that you still felt like you needed to get into the crafting orders afterwards, means it’s still a hindrance for the high difficulties as I also mentioned earlier in the thread. So either way, you still need to get into it.
That way it’s baked into PvE progression, is the problem. Even if I’ll be able to get past the hurdle of getting into the scene itself, the fact that I still have to get into it later, is a big, big, problem.
with the artificial complexity, where it won’t affect players who aren’t interested in learning about the professions and just wants what is needed to play:
.