MELEE should do MORE dmg than RANGED not less

Community General Discussion
61

While yes. thats true. but its also Specific Ranged that Dont take as great DPS Losses

For Example the DPS Loss is MUCH larger for a Destro warlock or a Elemental Shaman then a mage or a Druid.

We seem to forget… the whole “insta casting Blinking bunny hop 360 Mobility” Doesnt exist For all classes.

for a Shaman to access its mobility which in large it would when doing mechanics we use Spirit wolf. which means we cant use Abilities not even instant ones.

and Warlocks are one of the most hard cast heavy classes in the game which makes every Moment not casting huge dps drops for them.

tbh when u talk to mythic raiders and more they only realistically say this specfically for sludgefist.

that and the surface area in melee is smaller, therefore ur more likely to kil leach other if someones dumb.

62

That is kind of the main issue though, I agree Melee and ranged should be tuned similarly in dps (its blizzard so tuning is a coinflip anyway) but in the end ranged are just better at dealing with mechanics while maintaining at least SOME dps, meaning you want more ranged on your team ideally and the more melee you add the more dps the raid loses overall once there is not enough ranged to deal with the mechanics that require moving out of melee range.

Obviously this is no issue at the top as the best guilds can essentially build their comp how they like but in the middle of the pack where you can not craft your raidcomp how you wish it can and will become an issue. There are so many melee specs in the game compared to ranged while the ratio of dps you want in raid to have the best chances is heavily skewed towards ranged dps.

63

but this is the issue is the statement :stuck_out_tongue: Specific Ranged are good at doing mechanics not all ranged. when U look at for example Artificer… u wont make a Warlock do the Seeds would u?.. u’d have them Maybe Supply gateways… but u wouldnt physically get them to do the mechanic.

but a Mage or boomkin can do that role pretty fittingly.

but a blanket nerf/buff… Would smack a Warlock for something boomkins and mages are doing?.

when u pair alot of Ranged v Melee… u see differences… melee are More mobile then quite a few ranged speccs… we just have some ranged speccs that Break those boarders such as Mage with double blinks and More ontop of its kit.

Yes there are Speccs which do the job worse or better… my argument is simply blanket nerfing Ranged v Melee… would utterly destroy some Ranged classes entirely for what a few casters are currently managing.

Lets be honest here… this isnt a “INVITE ALL RANGED DPS DC WHAT SPECC JUST GET EM IN”.

its “lets stack boomies and Mages and take a few Warlocks for Utility”.

64

Just need to slightly reduce the amount of time melee can’t attack because of huge puddles, circles they can’t (shouldn’t) get into, and mob running speed. There are too many mechanics in SL that ensure melee can’t do anything while ranged can just keep blasting.

65

Tbh i’d need some examples there… i dont feel alot of mechanics are completely “ignorable” As melee… The only thing that could come to mind are Sanguine Depths Piercer guys wit hthe Red Mist lines.

but thats more of a Positioning thing then a DPS Loss for melee.

i’d argue the large factor in this… is maybe blizzard are at the point their making the game physically too hard for the playerbase, theres a Reason every season takes 8 waves of Nerfs after the pros have cleared it before u see many at all capable of the content.

there are Lots of people out there that cant actively run in several directions and change position continously while perfectly doing a Rotation. or burst phase… which leads the player into “i just wanna survive” mode. which yes is a DPS Loss.

66

Correct there is not “get only ranged” the fact that warrior, DH and monk are all melee (cause thanks to tuning MW doesnt exist) secures some spots for melee.

But there is a critical point where too many melee dps becomes a problem on a lot of encounters but fights where too many ranged dps becomes a problem basically don’t exist.

67

I’ve put in a few examples here: Please tweak the "melee can't be melee" in SL

Can add more examples if you want.

68

In the end we cannot get around that Ranged are much better at dealing with mechanics than melee which is a HUGE advantage. But what are the advantage of melees? Why even bring them? I mean, I don’t really care much about dps, but the only way I could see melees having a positive side in raids would be if they did more damage. So you’d bring ranged for mechanics and melees for damage (very simplified idea). Or at least single target boss damage.

Right now there is no advantage to bring melees and that’s an issue whether you like it or not. DKs are only brought because of the absolutely OP utility they have right now.

69

while as i said before the sanguine depths i do agree with.

with Mists of tirna Scithe… the last boss is a major dps loss for Ranged however because of how its AoE Works and perma makes Mobility a Requirement.

Theater of Pain has Several bosses that actually interupt and Silence Casters for messing up when they cast through it.

and the lack of mobility in quite a few casters (i understand some casters Have the “i win” button here) Struggle in first boss moving side to side continously which again leads to DPS Losses.

Plaguefall basically ALOT Of the dungeon require Ranged to stack ontop of Melee because it Generally makes their AoES far easier to dodge comparitively.

Ventunax basically is a Nightmare for hardcasting at all.

Mueh zalas dance fight style Gives melee ALOT of uptime while forcing Ranged to move back and fourth.

ManaStorms requires in alot of times For Ranged to Stand in melee Otherwise u’ll riosk DPS Losses if ur the target to stun one of em

It goes both ways realistically, as i said above… i think the major problem here is we have reached a Point where blizzard are intentionally over ramping things up to make the Esports Players try… not to actually be able to be met by the average Player.

Some Ranged not all Ranged.

Elemental Shaman is a good example of a Ranged DPS that prolly falls on the shorter end of this. Hence why Amazingly Elemental Shaman is Also near the bottom in DPS when it comes to castle Nathria.

my point isnt that there arent Ranged DPS SPeccs dealing with mechanics easier… my point is it isnt ALL Ranged DPS Speccs dealing with mechanics with less DPS Loss.

my argument isnt that something needs to change.

my point is if a blanket change was to be made here, Elemental Shaman and some speccs in the same place Would effectively fall off the face of the earth.

Mages and boomkins are DEFINTLY Dealing with Mechanics FAR easier then Melee… but some Ranged do take massive hits to uptime to deal with mechanics./

70

I play both ranged and melee, and yes there are silencing mechanics or mechanics that make sure you have to move as ranged. However, they don’t even come close to how bad it is for melee. The only reason I’m not playing ranged end-game, is because I really don’t like any of the ranged classes.

Melee is certainly doable, it’s just that compared to ranged you have to put a whole lot more effort into not dying while still trying to put in a lot of effort of reaching good DPS numbers. This is often worsened by not being able to properly see nameplates (no matter how you tweak them), because you’re on top of everything, having kicks just out of range, cameras stuck in walls because you have to do stuff while moving out near walls etc.

71

i play both melee and Ranged and tbh i’ve climbed the same keys with both :P. there are very few fights i’ve found harder to play… and Ironically my melee class does More damage then my ranged class.

I have a Unholy DK, Fury Warrior and Elemental Shaman.

And both my melee classes do More Damage… the only fight i mess up on massively and seem to struggle with is Dealer in DOS.

72

Playing on my hunter or ele shammy feels like a snoozefest compared to melee, so I’m not sure what you’ve been playing.

73

hunter i can agree with. Ele Shaman i dunno how realistically… Considering ur Spirit Wolf for mobility Removes ur uptime to 0%.

as i’ve said above there are defintly Melee Unfriendly mechanics out there.

Sludgefist.
Storming.
Spirits.
Sanguine.

these are just some examples of it… and Yes Melee Do have a Higher Skillcap. it requires faster Twitch reaction thats for sure. but uptime v uptime. We’re talking about Some Ranged Options that likely shouldnt of held onto specific things in its Kits which sadly it did do.

I’d argue modern WoW has done ALOT to try reverse the melee v Ranged Gap. as if u remember back in MoP. Where everyone wants to be, Ranged Classes ALL DPS’d while Running because they could cast while moving.

However Elemental Shaman, Shadow Priest, Destro Warlocks and more rely on heavy casting. which Means they take chunks of no uptime along side with melee in alot of Mechanics.

I’d also argue these things have been put in to p*ss of esports players and have hampered the experience For the average playerbase in turn for that also however… None of those mechanics should exist… they’re all TERRIBLE irritating… and They’re not hard… they’re just irritating.

74

Elemental is top 5 in Castle Nathria?

All Ranged spec have a huge advantage for dealing with mechanics over melee because they can position much more freely. So they can pre-move to relevant spots. This mean they have to move much less when the mechanics occur which gives faster reaction time and less confusion.

Ranged (all ranged) is much more favorable for raiding simply because they are much less restricted. Melees have no advantage right now. Zero.

That said, I agree that some ranged classes are better than others. Especially mages with how many defensive abilities they got combined with insane mobility.

75

Yes as of 9.0.5 which i reliesed upon seeing this weeks logs just now xD however Prior it Most defintly wasnt.

but how often do we see Ele Shaman there :stuck_out_tongue: we all know its getting nerfed. Ion wont stand for that.

not for all mechanics, there are some mechanics. which sure is agreeable. which does make the problem stick out like a sore thumb sure. as i said there are clear fights which ranged are just better in.

If u talk to Alot of raid leaders and More… most of them say becuase its less Punishing when they’re Dumb. Excluding sludgefist Which yes is a Massive problem.

Fin went Melee for a Tier and when he talks about melee he said He favored it in every enviroment except raiding. And a major reason into that when he goes into it is because of Sludgefist.

that and i nalot of cases arent even punished for using it.

Ele Shamans Mobility removes their ability to use abilities… whiel mages can bunnyhop 30feet while casting… it lacks sense.

well eys as i said, Melee require faster twitch reaction… but again… does mechanics requiring Twitch reaction belong in a MMORPG.

The point is.

During MoP and everything prior the whole RANGED IS BETTER arguments were far Smaller far Fewer and Far less Problematic… even tho ranged Had it BETTER back in those days then now… and theres a Specific reason for it.

Some Classes got Pruned harder then others. Some classes are far more restricted then others. some bring everything to the table while others Loss things to gain things.

and the whole game entirely has reached a Point where Alot of Melee players now struggle

Preach talked quyite in depth on it…

When u go into +10-12 keys u can see ALOT Of melee are struggling becuase being Melee Means u need to permanantly Move. Permanantly Move while Executing ur rotation.

when we talk about the ability to do that.

Perfectly moving around mechanics… in a Condensed Area (much smaller then ranged areas of movement obviously) while having to continously execute burst phases and basic Rotations. is Something MOST average WoW players Litterally cant do.

So i’d argue. Its bad Game Design to try and make the game look “hard” For the esports scene then they just continously nerf content til players can handle it again.

hence why. when u look at top 1% U see Plenty of Melee Doing the same Damage as Ranged in alot of Cases and Uptimes not being massively apart. but when u look at the Mid 50% (25 percentil to 75 percentile) U can see where melees Uptime drops off the face of the earth.

this is because Effectively the game has become so mechanically Reactory that Players are falling into “JUST SURVIVE” mentalitys. of Just giving up on trying to maximise DPS in favor of Surviving the encounter.

If the games pushing players that far. its Bad Game Design… it loses enjoyment.

how to counter that? Im unsure of realistically?.. increase Melee Range by 10 yards to try and Increase the size of area melee can run within? or what?.. have mechanics Intentionally happening in melee Range to try and make mechanics that force Ranged to move Into the fight?

Create Stack mechanics to force Ranged to Sit in melee with melee?

77

i’d argue atleast 70% of the playerbase dont know how to melee Properly…

Melee Require a Simultanious Permanant Movement while using ur rotation as u move, that is Something that in +10s and +12s is a Glaring issue. Plaguefalls Last boss really shows it

thje amount of melee i see Just Stop using abilities to favor trying to ensure they get around the tentacles properly is amazingly high. im not saying Ranged arent interupted i play ranged and they defintly are.

however. Melee Effectively should be able to uphold Uptime during that unlike ranged… but in most cases Melee do lose uptime also.

i guess its down to the players opinon if they think thats a Reasonable expectation or not though.

78

Well, that IS priority, isn’t it? And for like the whole fight when the tentacles are up there is nothing to hit for a melee since the boss is down. The adds around are hard to get aggro on for the tank when they spawn during this phase too, so as a melee better not get 1 shot by those. Dodge tentacles > dps.

79

I will agree on that.

These days, the difference between melee and ranged is very small, if you know how to deal with the role(s). The game is designed around taking advantage of more than just your spells. As for movement, strafing and fine-tuning how far you move out of an ability etc. Most people completely overdo things, at the cost of dps. Or they simply don’t realize how to utilize stuff like enviroment, movement and mechanics. Or sometimes even enviromental buffs of different sorts.

I can overlook stuff too, but I am also not top tier in the world. I am however not seeing this huge disparity between melee and ranged advantages. It seems pretty fair to me. Both have advantages and disadvantages, and it all evens out in the end.

80

Yes. but the problem here means that effectively Melee are Losing uptime where they should have uptime. then u could boil it down further to say is the lack of Uptime due to the player or the game? Because the Player has Lost uptime due to being unable to do both.

no several times she waves tentacles while the boss is active atleast on tyrannical weeks.

as i say i aint blamingf melee for reacting this way… my point is Should a Encounter in that design Exist to begin with?

81

Nothing about this post makes sense.

Melee do more damage than casters whenever they have uptime. On average melee will almost always do more damage than casters throughout an arena match, particularly in a melee/caster mirror - just check AWC

This is one aspect of the game that is quite well balanced