MELEE should do MORE dmg than RANGED not less

Community General Discussion
82

Yes, the last 30% phase you get everything at the same time. But that is Bloodlust phase so that is actually the easier and very short phase :sweat_smile:

I do agree it is a stupid design. Especially as melee healer when the boss goes down and i got nothing to crusader strike for holy power and the rain is going on. I see that as the soft enrage of the boss, like many bosses have.

A system i totally dispise in SL dungeons. Like 1st boss mists you get chunked when you can not kill the tree in the time. Or hakkar that needs the last 25% burned and if you dont make the dps check you can not kill it at all.

83

Ele was already close to that before 9.0.5. ST damage didnā€™t really change, primarily AoE did.

The vast majority of mechanics they have massive benefits:

  • Shriekwing: less limited by puddles, less mechanics to move away from, easier dropping puddles
  • Huntsman: much easier cleave for a few ranged specs, no need to move to shades, easier to pre-position around the boss
  • Hungering: depending on the strat, as ranged are often treated as melee here, higher uptime of damage when you have to run away
  • Sun King: hardly limited by flame patches
  • Innerva: much easier to reach the soak spots/orbs, ranged required to do tanks as melee have a massive DPS loss if they do
  • Xyā€™mox: much less hectic to hit the boss due to beams or the boss chasing the tank running away with the explosion
  • Council: donā€™t have to reach the bosses when slowed and donā€™t have to stack as hard as melee do when you have to run from puddles & you can actually easily hit adds when they spawn instead of wasting time running to them
  • Sludgefist: You can actually properly burst the pillar bump phase because you donā€™t waste 1~2 seconds running to him, not to mention that youā€™re not constantly having to stop DPS and run out of his stomp
  • Generals, should I even have to mention the constantly being able to hit the bosses/adds without being restricted by all the ā€œmove away from the boss mechanics?ā€
  • Sire: especially in the last phase you have it much easier, as melee constantly have to run away from the boss for things like orb soaks.
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84

no they werent enhancement began this season above Elementalā€¦ it fell below elemental in i think week 3ish because this char started as Enhancemnt for that reasonā€¦ and its arguable that enhancement is Stronger then elemental in M+ but i have yet to test it :smiley:

this is very false

What the Elemental Changes Did was Change the Elemental Shamans BiS Stats. it changed its Build and it gave Shaman a Burst window which it hadnt had priorly (which we know is a BIG BOON in CN right now)

Elemental Went from a Mastery / Vers Stack to a Haste / Crit Stack.

It also shifted its BiS legendary to Skybreaker and Created a HUGE burst capabilityu through storm elemental. by nerfing lava Burst and Buffing Earth Shock this is a step closer to how we played in BFA.

This change did ALOT More then just ā€œChange AoEā€ā€¦

lets say for example we just agreed here.

What exactly do you propose to fix such a problem?.. Nerfing Ranged and buffing Melee will reverse the situation and make Ranged classes Unwanted.

Reversing the problem doesnt Solve the problemā€¦ it Retains the problem, Uā€™d have to create a Game where both melee and Ranged are Equally wantedā€¦

85

Well, windwalker monk did way more damage than ranged just recently but I think they broke it after the ā€˜ā€˜bugā€™ā€™ fix.

86

it wasnt a ā€œbugā€ fix ā€¦ it was a bugā€¦problem is they should have fixed the bug before release (think fof clipping is since bfa?) or compensate for the dmg lostā€¦they did neither so monks got trolled hard by 905.

87

check the melee specs + classes on shriekā€¦its not melee per se, its dot classes mostly spriest, assa, feral, boomie and affli.

88

Elemental has been pretty high on the charts for the past weeks.

Thatā€™s why I said it primarily changed AoE, ST itself didnā€™t really change in damage overall output.

If youā€™ve read my post, you know what I propose. Less windows where melee canā€™t DPS at all because they have to move out, and less movement DPS that depends on whether or not you can hit something straight away, can rush in, or have to avoid standing in things that are barely visible.

89

Melee donā€™t cast.

90

Thatā€™s funny coming from a monk.

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91

Generally speaking because ranged classes (on average) suffer more interruptions to their dps when they have to deal with mechanics.

Melee are only really punished by way of mechanics by the ā€œmove out of melee range of the bossā€ mechanics which arenā€™t extremely popular. Itā€™s not like every boss has them.

Ranged must deal with (melee must to) ā€œmove away from the swirlyā€ mechanics, now generally these swirlies are such that as a melee you can rotate around the boss the avoid them and maintain 100% dps. As a caster if I move, I have to stop casting.

Pretty much every single boss as well as several m+ affixes and mob mechanics involve this kind of ā€œmove slightlyā€ mechanic which is absolute hell to deal with if you are a hardcaster like a destro lock or a demo lock for example. The 2nd boss of plaguefall is a good example of this on a smaller platform, with his leaping explosion chain followed by the green lines and blobs, this usually results in me being unable to get a cast for a 4-5 seconds or so unless I just facetank a patch.

The only really winners are ranged classes that can maintain their majority dps whilst moving but they are in the minority for example BM, Fire during burst phase, Demo/affli during maximum ramp. The rest have to stand still for periods and having to cancel a cast at the wrong time (for example having to cancel my tyrant cast just before my dogs expire and i have max imps out) results in a huge DPS loss even if it resulted in me only delaying the cast by 1.3 secs or so.

92

then we basically agree :stuck_out_tongue: as i said i feel its a class v class problemā€¦ its the rapid Increase in how much goes on in a fight. Blizzard seem to have lost pathing here realistically

Games become so set on creating the Scene for WFR and More that its become a Wildly over the top headache for those who actually play the game.

93

I donā€™t even aknowledge WW as a spec anymore. Its so beyond dreadfully boring.

94

You can do it as a full melee team, you just need a few havoc dh to fel rush there. I do it sometimes to help kill those if the one in the middle plateform die fast.

95

Paladins cast divine storm. It is an instant cast, but it is still a cast. Jk I know what you mean. My main point was that currently, Iā€™d argue melee has it easier than ranged. Thereā€™s like no extra threat to us. Only Sludgefist can kill a less than careful melee, and thatā€™s it. Standing at the boss is usually the safest area.

96

People here really havent raided high end it seems . Melee are just plain undesirable on almost every encounter and has been so for a long time , sludgefist is just the cherry on the top ,where if you could you wouldnt bring melee. Thank god some raid buffs are on melee and that tanks cant cover them all. Othetwise you would see about 2 melee in every raid if even. Uhdk got seen this raid for its insane dmg and utility, if they did equal dmg to most ranged in execute they wouldve prob been benched aswell.

I honestly believe melee need 120% or more dmg compared to range if you want a correct balance of representation seeing as there are a ton more mellee specs than range in the game and blizzard has only added new melee specs aswell.

Also i cannot fathom to understand people that say melee have higher up time than range ? Do you even raid ,as a range you have 100% uptime unless you are playing an ultra hard casting class such as demo lock( bonus points do you know why no one brings demo locks to high end progress :slight_smile: ? ) , If you get a mechanic where you have to move as range you just use another instant spell,refresh flame shock ,refredh dots,cast scorch instead of fireball,yes you dont do 100% of your dmg but man you have 100% uptime . Meanwhile every single boss in cn mythic has run away from me mechanics where melee lose uptime like legit uptime( shriekwing droping pools, shriek, huntsman being targetd by the arrow ,hungering consume,explosion,inerva doing orbs ,kael soaking ember away from the raid ,xymox portals,council dance in and out ,moving for dancers,adds to swap,slg adds ,dancing ,denathiurs p3,oh yeah sludge hello). Its baffling seeing you talk about how melee have higher uptime when range have virtually 100% while watching netflix.

You really cant defend range doing equal damage to melee when if melee would do 150% more damage than range you would still get range classes in cause they are pivotal in mechanics while if the oposite woild be true you would not bring a single melee bar the buffs. You all seem to be forgetting range are just better melle classes.

The only fight ever range was trash was guldan in mythic where they got trucked and you didnt waant more than 4 but god you still needed 4 ,best boss fight ever and the most melee diverse one aswell all melees where there ,enhances ,retri ,outlaws,fury ,arms .

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97

What? Are u being sarcastic or what? Lol thatā€™d make ranged completely useless lmfao.

Iā€™m really confused to how you beleive melee should actively double our DPS.

If they did that the DPS checks would have to be done to melee DPS. Which would make ranged classes completely irrelevant to all contentā€¦

:person_facepalming::person_facepalming: Honestly Ur post makes me thankful blizzard ignore us.

I get it we all wanna be meta but jeez. Your concepts are way over the top lol.

Maybe the push should be to fix the mechanics which are making those disparity a to begin with. Instead of pushing to bench each others choices.

98

Since when is 120% double dmg ? Maybe the expresion was vague but i meant for a melee to do 120% of a range dps ,which is a 20% dmg increase to make up for run away from boss mechanics and still have them do more dmg by a tiny amount than ranged dps .

You dont understand how unbenchable ranged are with the mechanics that are usually used in mythic, if melee did insanely more dmg you would still have range in your group,thats how bad it is .
Some classes are also royally scrwed from dmg if the mechanic happens on a awful timer like legion ret or bfa fdk if you had to run with wings or breath you could kiss good bye to so much dmg even with 20% theoritcal dmg increase you would be bellow range by sooo much.

Blizzard canā€™t also remove the mechanics cause then melee would afk on the boss,not many mechanics you can throw at them to not have them move away from the boss and have interesting mechanics,you cant also throw guldan felfire mechanic in every single boss to even out range stacks(boring again) .

Either you make sure melee are desirable to 60/40 (melee /range dps raid split,cause there are more melee specs), by either buffing their dmg so even if they are hamepered by mechanics they do not reach rock bottom or you grant only melee buffs when forced to do mechanics so people have no problem doing them cause its a net increase in dmg or equal dmg .

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99

thought u ment 120% More damage then ranged tbh :stuck_out_tongue:

no but they can create mechanics that affect melee and ranged equally.

Which will force rangeds uptime to reduce the same amount of a Melee. or reduce the periods of time Melee cant attack inā€¦

at the end of the day, if Mechanics arent suitable for a Melee player to do then Its Kinda bad design in itselfā€¦ maybe have some mechanics Work.

And as u statedā€¦ maybe a few of the Ranged DPS Could lose a few things to actually make them have to Cast.

100

The problem is the way ranged are designed ,or to be more ironic how casters are designed when they are barely casting anything ,if all range bar hunters had to cast everything (dots included) you would have equal mechanics ,it would mean move mechanics would make range dps lose uptime not only melee. But that will never happen people dont seem to want to go back to that playstyle. Another solution would be to allow melee 100% uptime via new abilities or existing ones ,lets say arm warriors extend current bleed with their throw or hammer ,or paladins get a new range spender (hear me out exorcism) and that would do 90% of tv dmg but from 30 yards and have them have max 2 charges,so melee can maintain uptime but not 100% dmg

101

Well imho, theres a boss in WoTLK with a good example of a Mechanic that forces Less uptime for Ranged in a Dungeon

Standing still stacks a Damaging debuff on urself, which eventually Roots u in placeā€¦ that was good to force People to move effectively while not really impacting melee Uptime in the slightest.

it can be done.

and Also ontop of that yeah. maybe Looking at extending the Melee Range Slightly to increase the Size of area melee can manuover in.