Melees are too weak/Healer Problems

Frost Mage is already out of control.

Yeah you can nerf Melee Mobility but you need to nerf Mage Mobility the same time and the Slow.

2 Likes

Oh, pray tell, how am I wrong when I do so?

melees need utility and diversity. every melee feels the same 1-3 main dmg abilities 1 stun x other cc x moility which leads to the problem we have right now. every team will run the highst dps melee+ x strong caster —> x melee gets nerfed and the 2nd strongest one will be fotm

3 Likes

No you shouldnt nerf range mobility and slows. Ranged needs to be more mobile than melee.

Instant casts need to be nerfed. So casts are needed to land meaningfull burst.

From melees being too mobile and having to much uptime comes the issue of casters having spammable instants that can burst ppl down. If melees where less mobile the instants, the tankiness and the selfhealing of some wasnt needed.

1 issue cant be seen out of context. Blizzard balanced casters like this to make up for melees having this much mobility.

My man I’m not gonna spend 20 minutes slowly waddling towards you at 30% movement speed. That’s not good design that’s just a chore.
Infact, this is probably bad design for casters as well, since they have to constantly stop their casts to kite.

Tedious gameplay.

How in the F are melee supposed to have fun playing if they get kited all day?

This is insane.

Casters will be forced to cast to do damage. So that little extra mobility they get is used to cast. Melee will have a chance to catch up due to that.

Its basicly how wow was during the early days. You know…the days that wow was actually popular.

Mind that this is the basic idea of how a caster and a melee should work. There will always be more mobile and less mobile casters/melee. Which in turn will be compensated with slightly more selfhealing control or tankability.

I can follow your argumentation and kinda understand where your thinking is coming from, still think it’s the wrong way.

Melees were a lot more mobile in MoP and WoD for example, wizzards were still in the same spot if not even leading. Take L.S.D in MoP or RMD in WoD (Holy Shatter if you still need a wizzardcleave). And back then, melees were even more mobile (Warrior deffo had more uptime than today!!! Feral was T1-T1.5, etc.)

And Mages didn’t had as much kiteabilities as today, Locks weren’t as tanky, etc. So either DH and Assa redesigned have changed everything and should be removed or nerfed to non existant in PvP (I would totally agree with that :wink: ) or it is still possible to be top tier even without their toolkit of micro ccs.

Look at the vods of Grmbl vs Method Black (mostly the last 3 games).

Do you think the game looks interesting and good if you look purely at the combat.

Its 2 melee with near 100% up time. A “mobile” caster thats meant to be one of the better kiters that is forced to tank. Yet at the end hes still able to win since he can spam instants.

Its a shtshow.

You need to balance around casters that need to cast to do the bulk of their damage. Especially their burst. And you need to balance melee mobility around that.

Well, we already had that. The mainquestion at all: Why do they bring out a wizzardcleave vs TWD if they weren’t sure that their chances to win are huge? :slight_smile: They also throw one game and still won the series… Not saying it is fun or interesting, but why is it the fault of the meleecleave?!

Well, it’s maybe not that easy to kite a WW but if a DK can generate nearly 100% uptime, it’s deffo not because they have the stuff to do so… Also I haven’t watched all games from the beginning til end - I usually fast-forward until 2-3 mins before the end of the game (something I started doing in Legion…), so I can’t say how the games were, but pretty sure it wasn’t nearly 100% uptime if they really tried to avoid it!

You keep saying that, but I still disagree.

Its really hard to talk sense in to someone this biased towards melee.

Im not saying melee are weak or strong now. Im saying this entire shtshow is caused by Blizzard balancing around melee being too mobile and casters needing instants to make up for that.

Lets imagine you had the power to fix that specific setup, the fight between Grmbl and method black.

How would you balance it?

Balancing one single fight that is already done full of mistakes on both sides (but more on Method Black tbh)?! And you are the one coming with

Okay… Anyways, I’m obviously

in your opinion, even when it’s you who is biased since you are playing mainly caster and have less xp with melees, so it’s pointless to argue with you - especially since you are not open to change your opinion quite a bit. Your opinion is right, anyone who’s not sharing it, is clueless or biased. :wink:

P.S.: If you want a general hint from me how to balance the game, that’s quite easy. Take the last season of MoP, WotLK and WoD, combine them (as I’ve said, only the last seasons of those xpac), finetune some values and you have a good class design that’s maybe not perfectly balanced, but deffo fun to play.

Im not talking about the fight. Im talking about how u would balance the classes within those comps so that a series with those comps is at least watchable and not a shtfest.

Or do you think those mistakes you refer to are debet to the unwatchable and unfun state of their games?

We would need to redesign the game completely. Classbalance based on PvP with finetuning in PvE. We can’t change this “shtfest” with just swapping around a few numbers.

But that isn’t what the thread is about - we are mainly talking about the current caster dominance (even when dh+dk comps are a problem as well right now). Caster were already dominating before the manareg nerf, but after it, they got even more dominating. Sure, DH manaburn became a thing again (dunno why there is still a class that can manaburn with having a monopol on it), but wizzards got indirectly buffed by it:

Avoiding dmg or reducing it a lot, while having high dmg and/or cc at the same time, is obviously the meta when mana matters again. That’s why we see Destro, Ele (ghostwolf), Frostmage, DK and DH currently so much. And that is also where those micro ccs matter so much: They aren’t only annoying, each dispell is a huge decission in longer games (mana matters > dispells cost mana > …).

Also: The less uptime melees have, the more mana they cost vs wizzardcleaves…

Removing or nerfing those “micro CCs” as you call them makes the game even worse. The potential up time is allready too high :smiley:

You need to buff melee burst, while nerfing their up time. That way you have better kill opportunities when you connect, but you don’t have near 100% up time like during those last 3 games.

Buffs and nerfs dont excist in a vacuüm. Buffing up time means casters need even more instants, more tankabbility or more self healing. Its an everlasting down ward spiral.

Two questions:

1] Are you sure thats healthy for the game?
2] Or do you just want this since it currently improves your chance of succes as melee?

2 Likes

You just don’t get it, that’s why we are running in a circle. The thread is based on the assumption that wizzards are too strong right now. If that’s the case (and most people do think so currently) we need to nerf them or buff the other side (melees).

Therefor we have additional possibilities on the short hand (reducing defense, increasing uptime of the melees, w/e). Non of them are great but if we can’t change the class-/game balance (and we can’t until the next xpac) it’s the only way we have.

The actual issue is, that you don’t think caster are too strong. You say we need even to reduce the uptime so we can reduce all the stuff casters have, they have to hardcast again and that would help and do the job. But it won’t. So personally I’m done running in the circle with you - enjoy your time.

The pvp part of the game is in a terrible state atm. Tournaments that pull less viewers than streamers showcasing an empty chair.

I understand that you want you WW monk to be relatively stronger. I understand that your opnion is 100% biased.

Mine isnt tho. I care about the overall state of the game…not wether or not ill get glad this season.

This is what the game is right now and even more so if you improve uptime off melee even further: w w w .youtube.com/watch?v=FtZcy2ay1ac

Indeed, but you grap wrong reasons for it and/or have unrealistic ideas for changes within an expansion. Do you really think they will rework the whole gamebalance outside of a new xpac? They won’t.

A sentence full of irony with more irony followed by:

Do you really belief this?!

The problem is, that you think one of them is a caster. If one of them was a caster, the other one would already have been destroyed and knocked out of the ring after 10 secs.

You wanna know how the game currently is, when melees face wizzards who know how to play? w w w .twitch.tv/videos/381885960?t=0h7m55s

Just watch the game from the PoV of the warrior. And yes, that’s maybe related due a frostmage and you can generate more uptime vs a destrolock, but the thing is, if you hit a destro for 10 sec and he gets only one cb out in that time, he has done the same dmg only with the difference, that his dmg is landing in one gcd and yours splitted over 10 secs - what is generating more pressure?!

So stop being so fkn biased (or just fkn bad?!) and start to look onto the game state realisticly.

I think the problem is casters being too tanky for the amount of damage they can produce, a mage which is the most squishy caster can tank a tsg or wwdk and his hp bar does not even move before %20 dampening i am not even talking about locks, i remember good casters used to kite the melee to outplay their cds but they just dont need to do it now.As a melee if i decide to tank caster cds for more than 3 secs to stay agressive rip my hp bar.

2 Likes

Exactly, but Vilroth somehow has another opinion. Maybe you wanna deal with him…