My Experience playing M+

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
1

Recently I have came back to the game after an extended break. One of my favourite forms of content in the game is M+. I have loved playing this form of content for years - since Legion. So I was quite excited to play M+ again in TWW.

First thing I did was complete several heroic dungeons to get around 620 item level, then queued up my first mythic. Knowing my history, I knew that it’s generally safe queueing up for a mythic dungeon without any preparation before hand because the damage and health numbers aren’t too problematic at a mythic 0 dungeon.

Boy, I was wrong. Terribly wrong.

I queued up a mythic 0 dungeon, having no idea what to do. My first dungeon was The Motherlode. The trash wasn’t too mechanically difficult, however they did take longer than usual to kill, but it wasn’t too problematic since they went down easily enough.

The problem came with the bosses. It was a complete disaster. Every single boss I encountered, had a party-wide wipe mechanic. I was wiping the group constantly and not knowing a single thing that I was doing. There had never been a point previously where starting a mythic 0 dungeon in the middle of the season had resulted in a party wide wipe immediately upon failing the mechanic. In fact, I remember PuGing a +7 for the first time on Motherlode on my monk during BFA, and I don’t remember dying, wiping or having a miserable experience that I did during this expansion - despite not knowing how anything worked. This is the worst it has ever been.

Now, the reason this resonated with me, a few years ago I remember doing The Motherlode on my Monk, not knowing a single strategy or tactics during a +7 version of the dungeon. During that time, mobs would fall a lot faster, and bosses wouldn’t one shot or kill the whole group upon failing any mechanic.

So it was to my surprise, when doing The Motherlode this time, when the last time I did it several years ago I was fine. But this time, it was wipe after wipe. Consistently, it was the most unfun I had in Mythic dungeons in a very long time.

From a time where I could start mythic 0 dungeons and learn as I went along the tactics, this time I couldn’t. I was constantly wiping the group, not having a clue what I was doing. But last time I had no idea, it was fine in BFA. I was able to PuG a +7 dungeon and because the damage was much lower, and the bosses went down quicker, everything was fine. But this time, Pugging a +0 dungeon, and doing that is impossible without knowing anything.

So I tried another dungeon, Darkflame Cleft. This time, it got even worse. First boss, we wiped because no one targeted the carts. Second boss, no one knew what to do with the candles, so we wiped again. This time, I got kicked because people were frustrated with not knowing what to do. I think this is the first time ever, I have ever got kicked from a mythic 0 dungeon, since I started playing them in Legion - although it was justified because the one shot and punishing mechanics of the boss made sense. However, that’s not the point. The dungeon shouldn’t be that difficult in the first place.

So, what is my overall experience of mythic dungeons as a new player coming back to the game? Extremely negative.

As a new player, doing mythic 0 dungeons, were a very bad experience. Every dungeon I had to look up and plan the tactics and strategy of mobs, and bosses before the dungeon, or I would wipe the group. It was very stressful and felt like a chore. It was the most miserable experience because I wasn’t able to play the game and learn - for the first time, I was forced to find a guide outside the game to complete the dungeon.

No longer was I able to learn mythic dungeons through natural gameplay - now I am forced to go outside the game to learn the strategy, when that was never needed at any previous point in the game.

I strongly ask Blizzard to reconsider the damage and health tuning of bosses and trash mobs in early mythic dungeons, and have them ramp up much higher in later dungeons.

This is the most unfun and miserable mythic experience I have ever had. I have never disliked doing these dungeons more than at any other moment in time.

Early mythic dungeons should not be as punishing. I shouldn’t be able to single handedly wipe the group for not knowing what to do. I should not have to look up and plan each dungeon and devise a strategy before starting the dungeon each time, without fearing the risk of removal or constant wipes.

I really hope Blizzard redesigns and reconsiders future Mythic dungeon design. In its current iteration, it is by far the worst and most unfun version of dungeons I have experienced. I do hope this is changed in the future.

To clarify, the problem is primarily early mythic dungeons. I believe mythic 0 and 2 dungeons should be a lot easier than they are now, with less damage and health to help you learn the dungeons. The difficulty from heroic to mythic dungeons is absolutely massive. It is like going from LFR to heroic raids. The difference between heroic and mythic dungeons is too big of a jump, and needs to be toned down more to introduce newer players to mythic dungeons.

If you want my idea on what should change: each mythic dungeon that introduces an affix should introduce a spike in health and damage scaling.

So, mythic 0, 2, 3 dungeons should be a lot easier than they are now. A lot less damage and health.

Mythic 4 is where the first affix is introduced, so, Mythic 4, 5, 6, the health and damage should scale a lot more than they did from mythic 0, 2, 3. Then, Mythic 7, when the second affix is introduced should provide an even bigger spike in health and damage than they are now. Finally, mythic 12 onwards should introduce the third and final spike in health and damage, which introduces another affix. This way, newer players are introduced gradually, and more experienced players experience the increase in difficulty between affixes more, which will help to stabilise the difficulty in early keys.

Currently, the spike is between heroic and mythic 0, affect new players the most. However, the difficulty should spike between affix keys being introduced, because that affects the more seasoned and experienced players of the game.

This is not about being bad at the game. This is about the amount of preparation needed for a low level mythic dungeon. This is understandable if I am doing a m+5 or m+6 dungeon, but if I starting a mythic 0 dungeon for the first time, this should not be a first timer’s experience.

2

The damage and healing requirements of M0 are absolutely fine. You can do them by being AFK for 40% of the fights.

You did observe the actually problem:

The problem is that Heroic dungeons don’t “teach” players about the core mechanic of the fight, since it is essentially doesn’t punish you at all if you fail it. Another problem is that the extra mechanic Mythic introduces is sometimes more important, and cannot even be seen that element on Heroic.

Sadly, the only real solution is to read up. Which is the worst form of teaching players about the game (show don’t tell).

Admittedly, a lot has been done to try to help new players: a lot of crucial mechanics get announced during the fight with warning text and sound.

3

So its only fun when you can fail every possible thing and still win?

When did it become a thing that dying in a game ruined enjoyment?

4

It sounds like you learned some stuff about the dungeons and now you can go again. Wipe and learn :slight_smile: Well done.

5

That’s literally gaming catered to casuals which many games do.

6

Please don’t breed or vote, holy sh1t.
Like Obi wan said “why do I think we’ve picked up yet another pathetic life form?”
So you went in to the hardest tiered content in the game with 0 experience, not bothering to read the mechanics WHICH ARE EXPLAINED IN GAME, and now cry about wipes?
Oh boo hoo cry me a river :cry:
Blizzard’s fault bro, shoulda just given you everything instantly.
HOW DARE a game be hard.
HOW.

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7

Just no, there is absolutely 0 challenge in mythic zero’s or low m+ keys. Either you are bad or playing with horrible players. As a blood dk I feel like i have to go to 9+ keys to even test my spec properly cause lower is just no challenging enough defensively.

8

I am quite disappointed at the toxic and elitist nature these comments have become. My experience is just as valid as everyone else’s experience here - and being aggressive, rude or disrespectful of this experience is inappropriate - given my initial experience is likely one experienced by other casual or new players when starting the game. Thus, my frustrations in the initial part of dungeons is one likely experienced by other players starting the game.

First, I want to emphasize that I am not saying Mythic dungeons should become easier at a higher key level. My problem is with the initial entry level to mythic dungeons.

For new players, with a small item level, who knows no tactics at the beginning, the game needs to do a better job at introducing you to Mythic dungeons. The response of “Get better” or “look up guides” is unhelpful. The game should be more player friendly in the early parts of mythic dungeons to gradually introduce the player into the experience.

By making the game very difficult from the beginning, you steer away other players from beginning Mythic+ because of the initial difficulty.

The main concern stemmed from comparing my experience in TWW dungeons to past ones. In the past, in BFA dungeons or Legion, I wouldn’t need to look up a guide outside the game before starting a dungeon. In fact, I was able to go straight into a M+7 dungeon without knowing what to do, and manage to complete it. Now, it is very difficult to go into a M0 and complete it at all with the level of difficulty Mythic dungeons has now become.

As I mentioned earlier, my suggestion is to make the initial, early mythic dungeons easier, M0, M+2, M+3, to introduce players gradually to Mythic+. Then, at each subsequent affixes, introduce a large spike in difficulty, that will make the later dungeons just as hard as they are now. I am not proposing to make M+9 easier than it is. I am proposing to make the initial dungeons easier to make the transition from heroic to mythic a more enjoyable and gradual experience that allows newer or casual players to adjust to the mythic dungeon scene and learn at their own pace.

At the present moment, early mythic dungeons are an extremely unenjoyable experience, and too difficult to learn for newer players. If I had that experience, it is entirely possible many other players have similar concerns regarding the initial difficulty of mythic dungeons.

So, for the mythic dungeon scene to grow, my recommendation is to gradually introduce players into a better and easier experience initially, then spike damage and health at each affix, to be the same difficulty as they are now, while making the early part of mythics, like M0, M+2, M+3, more accessible to casual players.

These recommendations will make the game healthier and better for the long-term future of the game. Without these changes, and with an elitist attitude, you risk steering away newer players, and subsequently, dilute the growth of the mythic+ scene.

9

No sorry, but that just isn’t the case. All you need is one experienced person in the group who explains things and, in the best case, is the tank or the healer and runs some regular mythics with you. These people exist you just have to search for them a bit. Understanding mechanics is one of the most essential things as they don’t change in their functionality in keystones. They only become more relevant because at one point they getting deadly.

10

Ragebait used to be beliveable.

11

Inviting random players in a PuG as a newer player you have absolutely no expectation that anyone is experienced within the group. You could easily get 5 people who don’t know what they’re doing, given the better players are doing harder content or higher keystones.

The point is: understanding mechanics should be a thing that affects the later parts of the mythic keystone system.

There is no way to practice mythic dungeons. The easiest possible mythic difficulty has one-shot mechanics. There is no way to practice. Heroic dungeons you cannot use to prepare because they have different mechanics.

Mythic 0s are the easiest possible dungeons to learn the mechanics, and they one shot if you don’t understand everything.

At no point in the past, would a m0 dungeon one shot or punish you as harshly as these dungeons do today.

The amount of backlash and hate against new players wanting to be gradually introduced to the mythic system is absolutely shocking.

12

Problem are not realy dungeons but players who play at that level

youi starting +10 group and you doing that dungeon by pulling half a dungeon and aoeing everything down , dungeon feal super easy and you jsut run thrue it

you do 0-6 and it feals like “Memory from Vietnam” no one is interuption people are doing no damage and tank dont know where to go , keyes at that level feals like hell

basicly people who know how to play this game dont play on level lower then +7

13

For an experienced player who understands the strategy of the dungeon.

But that distinction is what you fail to understand.

The players struggling in mythic zero’s or low m+ keys aren’t experienced players. These are newer, inexperienced players who don’t know what they are doing. They are those who are struggling.

So if you made those dungeons easier for them to learn at low level mythic keystones, while making the later keystones the same difficulty, those changes literally wouldn’t affect you.

Making the early mythic keystones easier wouldn’t affect 90% of the “elite” players on this forum who are doing +8, +9 keystones, who are really experienced. Those dungeons should stay the same.

But for the easier ones, at mythic 0 or 2, they should be a lot easier. In this sense, making early mythics easier wouldn’t affect you. They would only affect the newer players, since you’ll be too busy doing the harder keystones while new players are busy learning the mythic dungeon.

14

Pls name one example of a mechanic which oneshots and isn’t obvious. Basically all oneshots this season are clearly telegraphed and even if you get hit by one in a M0, so what? You learn from that and it won’t happen again. There are only a few really tactical fights which require some strategic thinking (like the second boss in dark flame cleft) but even these fights don’t require a Harvard PhD. Like I said: You only need to be willing to look out for people and/or form groups with the goal of learning instead of expecting a quick “carry me pls”-run. There a lot of players which are in a similar boat as you.

15

First of all, this is a loaded question. The word ‘obvious’ is subjective and varies person to person, so you are already setting your response up as “Well that’s really obvious to me, so that’s just a skill-issue, hahahaha”, which I hope you’re not going to go down the line, so I’ll name you lots of mechanics that I think is not “obvious” to a new player that is either one-shot, or very punishing:

  1. Underhanded Track-tics from Ol’Waxbeard in Darkflame Cleft. It isn’t obvious that the whole party just died because the cart blew up and dealt 5.5 million damage to everyone.
  2. Incite Flames from Blazikon isn’t obvious that the whole party just died because the area of effect is increased based on the number of candles active.
  3. Footbomb Launcher from Coin-Operated Crowd Pummeller in Motherlode isn’t obvious that it will one shot the group, each bomb, since the average player is conditioned to move away from bombs, not to kick them at the boss.
  4. Azerokk with Azerite Infusion. It isn’t obvious that empowering the mob inflicts so much damage to the group, that failing to kill it will wipe the group.
  5. Stormguard Gorren, it isn’t obvious that Chaos Corruption will transfer to another player who is nearest to you, and if the same player gets the debuff twice, they get one shot.
  6. Swampface with Razorchoke Vines. It isn’t obvious the group wipes if you move too far away from everyone else. People just take a lot of damage when it happens.
  7. Demolition Duo, it isn’t obvious that you have to move the boss behind the bomb in order to destroy them or you get one shot by the bombs. The most intuitive thing to do is run away, but not to run behind a bomb.

I could go on and on, but it’s pointless. The main problem is players don’t have a place where they can learn these dungeons. Mythic zero dungeons should be made significantly easier to allow players to learn the dungeons. That is the main point.

M0 should be made a learning ground for new, inexperienced players. These dungeons are really easy if you know the tactics. But that’s the problem. If you don’t know the tactics, they are impossible.

If you don’t know the tactics, how is a new player, who is playing the game for fun and casually, expected to learn the bosses? Right now, there is no realistic method. Telling a casual player to look up a guide won’t work, because they will have lost interest before managing to look up a guide in the first place.

16

Everything you listed here are “learning by doing” mechanics. You fail them once and learn from that. The vine mechanic on swampface f.e. is the only one which adds a bit of complexity to this fight. Without it the whole encounter’d be basically only “dodge the bad stuff on the ground”. When every mechanic would be only a “tank & spank” people’d get bored very fast.

17

In this iteration of mythic dungeons, you shouldn’t be one shot from these mechanics while learning, because one shot doesn’t necessarily make you understand how you died.

For example, if the Chaos Corruption killed someone on the Stormguard Gorren boss, there is nothing that tells you what to do next time, since your team mate just got one shot. There’s no feedback to that at all.

Learning mechanics shouldn’t be as punishing and should be easier for casual players.

I want to clarify, these mechanics should 100% one shot players if we are on mid to high level keystones. Anything a 3 or 4+ , they should one shot, no disagreement there.

But when we are talking one-shot mechanics on a mythic zero, that’s different. The problem isn’t the mechanic one shotting. The problem is the mechanic one-shotting at LOW LEVEL mythic dungeons. At mythic 0, mechanics should not be that difficult for learning players.

18

if you can ignore mechanic cos it can be overheal or overdps you learn nothing even more

19

That is also partially true.

However, what I would say to that, as players get to a keystone that oneshots them, they would be more willing to return to an easier dungeon to learn the mechanics. Currently, that’s not possible because heroics aren’t the same tactics as mythic. So having an easier mythic dungeon to return to understand the tactics is a better strategy than how it is currently.

The goal isn’t to make the mechanic do no damage. The goal is to make the mechanic punishing, perhaps 60%-70% of health, but not so much that there is no possibility of doing the dungeon.

The curve from heroic to mythic 0 is too high, and shouldn’t be as punishing. I would be fine if heroic dungeons had mythic mechanics. As long as there is a way to learn and understand the mechanic without being severely punished.

20

The dungeon journal exists.

I have not once had to look things up beyond the journal for any dungeon content that was at or below max reward level.

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