Well no…There are a ton of things in this game that are so grindy people wont do them.
The basic equation of “effort – reward” still exists. And you forget as well basic human nature. “Staircase” progression curves dont work very well with humans. They ususally prefer a more linear one. It just feels better.
If you talk about overall HPS you talk about that. If you talk about specific moments in the key where HPS is required is another.
I did 800k overall in NW12. But in Stitchfless specifically I did 2.5M. Those are 2 different things.
Sure. Wait untill you do 12s. When that happens, a “non smooth run” equals wipe.
Meanwhile, on an 11 you absolutely can powerheal through a “non smooth run”.
See where im going with this ?
Either way. You talk as if you WANT the DDs and Tanks to do weird stuff. Im not sure that is the way to do M+.
Yes and no. If you obviously can’t pump high hps in specific scenarios, your overall hps will stay low. And in pugs (<12 keys) you will have often this kind of stress scenarios due to fails where this hps can be required.
Obviously, if the healer is having ~600k overall AND is below tank (which is not bdk) in hps it shows that this healer also can’t handle stress situations too. The utility being used poorly just tops all that. And this is not an uncommon scenario in pugs, especially for Rshamans right now since everyone wants to play meta because it increases your chances of getting invited.
Yes, obviously. What’s the point tho?
I think we both made the same experience? Your +12 pug runs ended in a wipe, mine ended in a wipe. The only difference is that you have two +12 keys in time with a pre made group of at least 4 people.
Why should I want that? I am simply talking about how it is in pugs and it is just happened that they do weird stuff. It’s not me wanting it. Do you have any other pov on pugs this season or only Rsham? It seems you ignore the fact that many players will simply avoid every healer that’s not officially meta, which means I will more likely to end up in average or below average groups than you.
RShaman can pump stupid HPS. But you will go OOM in 10 secconds. That is not a smart way to heal.
Either way. You are generalizing too much and extrapolating situations. Its not the smart way of thinking about healing in general.
When you play 2/3 key levels under the pros (that determine the meta) of course you will have issues getting invited.
The only way arround that is to do your own keys. And if possible, build your own premade. If you think about it, the groups that DO invite you to 12s are actually premades themselves and they are missing 1 healer.
But generally, I dont agree with the fact that there are only 5 key levels between a 9 and a 14. And 2 key levels between you and the pros. There should be atleast 10 more to accomodate different skill levels. But in the meantime, that is the reality of the situation. And it is what it is.
In S3 of DF when I wasnet meta, all I could reach were +28s (pros were doing +32s). So I had to either do a premade with my keys, OR, reroll meta. My only 2 options.
So what? If the situation requires it, you do it. You don’t save your mana for the next dungeon lmao…
Nah, you just miss the point. You need to play something else and get more experience from other perspective this season. Not just your Rshaman.
Unfortunately not everyone is able to have bunch of people who are willing to schedule their life around a video game.
Not always and if you think about it a little bit further, most of the people trying to do +12 key in pugs, are crazy meta slaves. So this is not doing anything to my situation but I also don’t mind since the season for me is over anyway. Unless we will have any significant changes that can actually attract people to play. If I am not mistaken it’s just 100k world wide and that’s a big L for a MMORPG like WoW.
They scuffed the difficulty completely. Week one was actually interesting for once. Now everyone can faceroll through up to +8 (and 9), farm the gear and even do the 10s once enough geared. But then you are simply stuck between “too easy” and “too hard to get into groups”, meanwhile everything is kinda unrewarded. Technically, just within one month we ran out of content this way. That’s actually crazy.
The retroactive change to dungeons being timed within the 90 sec addition has led to a +11 Siege of Boralus for me being timed, yet the dungeon portal for timing a +10 or above was not awarded. Will this be hotfixed in the next update?
I have a weird but similar bug, where it says I’ve timed a +9 in raider.io (and I have according to the wow armory) yet according to the m+ tab in game, my best is a +2
If a pack lasts for 30 to 40s and in 10s you are out of mana == wipe.
Or you can go the bad way and drink after every pack and loose like 4/5 min of the run with the party looking at you drink pack by pack. Also == deplete.
Bad way to heal.
ALL healers have to manage their CDs, their mana, and spot heal/aoe heal just like I do.
Also you were giving me examples of what tanks/DDs do. Nothing to do with other healers.
YES. And that is why there is a limit to how far you can push PuGing. And literally there is ZERO chance to pug keys as high as the “pros” do it. And the closer you get, the harder it becomes.
And that is NORMAL.
What this season has special is that as soon as you time an 11, you are already in “pro territory”. So you need to strech some more key levels between “them” and “us” to allow us to play more during the season.
Ehhh… NO.
Many people time an 11 because they are easy. And get a 12. You join that 1 guy trying to push his key in a PuG and you have an almost 99% guarantee to deplete.
Because you entered “pro” territory. You need a minimal degree of coordination to pull it off.
And on this I 100% agree. Not only that, I think this is the root cause of so many problems we see right now.
The M+ tab with best runs is best to ignore. It has been wrong for the whole season.
I have some dungeons too saying best run on like a +4. It also claims i have COT 10 timed while i have not. I have finished a +10 COT, thats true. But for dawnbreaker i have finished a +12 while it says +11.
I have absolutely no idea what the criteria are for the M+ tab.
I do would like to know i have now a Necrotic wake +11 timed since before i had a run with 9 seconds out of time. But armory is dead too. No way to check at the moment. Raiderio does says i do though. But that’s not the blizzard system.
So if the utility is not carrying and the shaman can’t manage the mana, maybe it’s the wrong pick then for this dungeon?
Nope, this is wrong. Disc priest has zero mana issues. Rdruid has zero mana issues. Hpala not sure atm after the nerfs but had no real issue either. Evoker not sure but I believe they have no mana issues either.
But most important this is irrelevant. The context was that you should play tank or dps to see how the healing looks like when you are not the one healing.
That’s the whole point of getting experience from a different perspective. For example, I didn’t notice how bad Rshamans are in pugs until I played a tank myself. I think even you can agree here that a Rshaman not using (or failing) his utility is pretty much useless for the group and can be replaced by many other healers.
Yes it is.
Yes, it is. But it seems that I had to mention it because you thought I am lacking experience, meanwhile I don’t I am just not able to complete these dungeons due to the nature of pugging and how groups fall apart before you manage to complete it. The issue was at no point the difficulty but finding the right people.
Yaaay! I in the pro territory now
Ehhh… yes.
You forgot to actually leave an argument here. I don’t see anything here that disproves any of my statements? Which part of your comment should explain that only 100k people are playing (or actually completing I believe) at +12s or that people at this range are meta slaves?
It means that the whole group is not ready for that difficulty. The healer has to L2P and manage mana better. And it also means that DDs are not usig Def CDs appropriately, and/or kicking.
RShaman dosent have mana issues either. IF you play him right.
And you can also go OOM with a Druid and HPala if you spam heal the wrong heals at the worng time. But you will also get an amazing HPS in details.
You specifically mentioned other healers. Of course I have seen what it is to tank/DD.
You are still extrapolating your point of view though. Dosent change a thing.
Well because originally your statement was : I cant push keys cause people are bad. And you went on a rant on how everyone sucks and you know how to do everytihng. FALSE. Its not because people are bad. And especially not because you are good.
You cant push keys cause those people arent in Discord with you !
And the fact that you cannot automatically see this makes me think that you dont have experience at those levels. Even though you claim to have it by saying your amazing parses and how big your HPS is compared to the tank and other pointless metrics.
Its literally the following post where you answer to that yourself :
Its the difficulty walls. That is what it is. Ive been saying this since the beginning.
It brings me to the fact: WHY is it that you need Discord to do 12s and you can YOLO rolf stomp an 11 ? THAT is why people are not playing those keys. Cause it makes no sense.
Think about it. You time everthing on 11, your happy. Then you spend the next 4 week wiping and depleating every single 12 you step foot in. Well, you can only do that for so long before you quit the game.
Yes, there is always a solution. Or you just accept reality and pump more HPS or take a healer who can do that. That’s why I end up often with ~900k+ overall hps in dungeons. I don’t just stop healing and tell the group “l2p you are not ready for this”. That’s what makes healing fun for me. Making up for mistakes but obviously only as long as it’s possible.
You mean if the entire group is playing right The healers I named don’t have mana issues under any circumstances. I played them all.
Nope, you can’t. I mean I main one and I didn’t drink a single time in the entire season. This was also one of the reasons why I decided to main Rdruid. It’s insanely high hps throughputs combined with no mana issues while barely relying on CDs.
Hpala had no mana issues either but after the changes I am not sure, so I can’t comment on that.
Actually I specifically said you need to play something else, under the context of a different role. Maybe it was not clear enough.
So you played tank and DD and you gonna say every Rshaman you met, let’s say in +10 keys, healed just fine and utilized the most of Rshaman’ kit that makes the spec S tier? Really? I highly doubt it. There is no way you played a significant amount of dungeons then on different roles.
Really? And how exactly do you know that? I am really curious to hear how you know anything about my runs or my skill. Bring it on
Well, I understand what you are trying here but it’s obviously not the only issue. Just like the friend I am playing with is with me on discord and even tho I call him out almost every important mechanic, he still fails sometimes, even on low keys lol^^
But ye, obviously this is the nature of pug. They are not on voice. But it’s also a fact that you don’t need to be on voice to pug successfully. I think we both know those people exist, even tho it’s not the majority of course.
So does this argument also works the other way around? If I say that you don’t understand that voice is not needed in order to complete, let’s say +12, in time with a pug group, you are bad at the game and need that baby sitting?
Because I know at least one healer and one dps who pug +12 and +13 in time with pugs without voice. Even with video evidence.
But I’d rather not jump into this kind of arguments. Just because you need to be on voice with your team because the key is too hard for you, it doesn’t go the same way for everyone else. It doesn’t mean that the majority can do it, obviously.
Na, that’s obvious. I just didn’t understand your comment to the quote. It just made no sense in that context.
I’d argue you don’t need Discord for +12. It sure can help some people, no question but it’s not required. The actual issue is that on +12 the mechanics are less forgiving and most people didn’t learn all the mechanics. They more have like a basic idea. So due to receiving less damage on +11 while do more it naturally creates an issue on +12, since the damage done is less while damage received is higher.
I personally don’t mind the challenge. Obviously you need at least the feeling that you can do it, otherwise it just ends up in frustration. But as long as you can see that you technically can do it, it’s a good challenge.
But I still think the main issue for people is not even attempting it but not having the chance to attempt it.
Also, I’d claim the majority of people plays pugs and not pre-mades or semi pre-mades. If you are running a Tank, Heal and one DPS as pre-made your chances are already significantly higher to complete the dungeon in time, than if you were just 2 DPS or 1 Heal and DPS.
Yeah, but that is not an indication of “good healing”. You might like it, but it isent.
I guess RShaman OP right ?
Whatever you say buddy.
Absolutely not. The amount of garbage RShamans is outstanding. But I also know that those players should they play any other class the performance would also be equally bad.
And many of them pumped a ton of HPS. But that did not save the keys either way. Because its not only about HPS.
Right here.
Comments about pugging in “pro” territory. And I said that is not good healing. At those level of plays, there is no “unexpected things”. Any of those == 1-shot.
And the fact that we keep talking about this baffles me.
For example, the original post about “I parse 99% percentile” from you, and this was your answer to that :
Citing how people can barely keep up and stuff like that. Well maybe the healer you were citing was having a hard time because you (I presume DDin or Tanking) sucked at what you were doing. Dunno… MAYBE its that !
And literally the following post in this very thread:
If you dont understand that if people dont PROGRESS they stop playing. Then there is absolutely nothing to talk about anymore.
And people need to progress at ALL levels. Not just on a 12. Being stuck for weeks doing 5s is not fun for that person. And he will absolutely stop playing as a result. No matter the rewards that come afterwards.
I always find the high HPS argument perplexing, if the team is truly “pro” then the healer will only have to heal unavoidable damage, not whatever trouble the typical player gets into, so, assuming the same key level surely their HPS will go DOWN?
A good day at work is a day where I have nothing to do, because it shows that I’m already on top of my work.
You mean as design?
Or you mean pumping a lot of heals so the group doesn’t die?
Has to be, no?
It’s not just whatever I say, it’s also what I do
See, at least we agree on this. But sadly them being Rshaman is per default increasing their chances of getting invited and getting carried by a good group, even if the performance is low.
I honestly only seen like 2-3 Shamans who healed more than me on tank overall. Even if it was just a bit. The rest is always significantly below me, while it’s not like there is no healing required. There is.
Meanwhile I am never below a tank in healing, ever. Except for a few bdks at some point and because there is nothing else to heal.
Absolutely makes no sense, I am sorry. Maybe you try to be more specific?
Even what you quote, basically already contains how unexpected things are happening, while not being one shot. So I truly don’t understand what you are trying to say. You can’t time GB +11 in time if everyone is getting one shot left and right, do we agree? At the same time you can not heal 1 mio hps overall if there are no unexpected fails?
Like… what you just said literally makes no sense and contradicts with the quote you made.
And that’s the point. That’s something I can completely exclude. I could fully elaborate on this but I don’t think it’s required. I think that you can trust me that I absolutely know what to do as a healer and as a tank. Especially in GB.
Of course I do understand it, I am just saying you don’t need Discord for +12 at the current state of the game. And as I said this can be proven, even with video evidence. But obviously it doesn’t work same way for everyone. You are mixing up context here.
As I agreed earlier, the season is basically over for most people because it’s hard to impossible to pug +12 while there are no meaningful rewards besides a really tiny rio number. This fact adds to the lack of players.
But it has actually barely anything to do with what you quoted. The context was more about Discord, +12 and lack of understanding of mechanics. Not lack of progression, even tho you are right with this and I agree on that.
That’s right but the reality with pugging is that people fail mechanics, you have more group damage received that is avoidable.
Now imagine you have a “pro healer” but he is only used to heal ~500k hps overall because he never had to heal more, since he was playing with good people.
But now you have an “average healer” who is always pugging and always have to pump close to 1 mil overall.
Who do you think people would pick if they had this information before starting the dungeon? (especially knowing, at least somewhere deep down, that they are not these good players they could and should be)
I’ve pugged through the entire season so far and I am never surprised about the fails of the group, at some points I even expect them and I am prepared. But some people don’t even know about that because pugging is not reality for them. I’ve seen tons of Resto Shamans failing in this kind of stress situations. That’s because most of them are rerollers and can only succeed in smooth runs but not in “typical” pug runs where everything is just a crazy world.
I am just not able to complete these dungeons due to the nature of pugging and how groups fall apart before you manage to complete it. The issue was at no point the difficulty but finding the right people.
