Mythic+ PUG'ing needs some real attention

Community General Discussion
1

Hei!

My personal view on mythic+ and how I think it damages the MMO aspect of the game today.

Mythic+ have been around for quite some time now, and it seems as the system is more or less unchanged since it was launched. And I wonder why? Are blizzard really happy with how the system works? I mean…myhtic+ in and of itself is fine. The problem is that PUG’ing mythic+ is just a pure nightmare. People are just too irrational, inconsistent and impatient. Just forming a group takes forever, even if I take people with low experience and low rio. And when you finally are able to form a half decent group, you can bet that one player will leave if not everything goes 100% smoothly from the start. So your key depletes, and you have to do it all over again. Finding players, gather up, start the instance and give it a shot. I am not even talking about pushing keys here. I am just talking about timing a key that is about the same or lower as the one you have completed before. So much time is wasted, and so many opportunities for progress is lost.

Why don’t you just get a guild or find people to play with regularly? you may ask - well…I like the flexibility of being a pug’er, and I also know that pug’ing is a big part of most players day.

My suggestion is. Either remove the existing LFG system, where you have to be listed and players pick you based on item level and progression (rAiDer IO). Or add a new function where you can queue up randomly to a mythic+ key. Let’s say you chose the dungeon you want to play and then you chose the difficulty (+2 to +15). There can and should be some fixed requirements, like item level or that you have timed the key below the one you are signing up for.

I think the existing system is just continuously fostering an elitist player base that is further focusing on peoples progress and rAiDer IO. For the game in general, this is SUPER unhealthy. The MMO aspect of the game is being destroyed, because people just want to complete certain content so that they can reach their next goal. This 100% progression focus is not really ideal. This week I wanted to do a +12, I invited two strong dps, and then I invited a holy paladin with 950 rio that had completed a 13. The two dps left, because they considered the healer to not be decent enough. That to me is just shocking. To see people with this elitist view on themselves and other players. It’s super unhealthy.

After 15 years of development, I wish blizzard was more involved with how the player base behave and act in an open public playing room. We need help to function well, either through different systems or through guidelines and rules.

I just can’t handle this anymore. Shadowlands has been a great experience. It provide me with a fresh experience of the game. The zones, dungeons and raids was great and I really liked it, but at this point, I will not be able to get anywhere without either a dedicated progress group or by being a hardcore pvp’er. My goal is really just to complete a +14 m+. But the system and LFG design makes it impossible for me as a puger. I guess I just have to either live with it or do something about it. However, my point is that I feel that blizzard is not taking any responsibility for their player base, and they don’t really provide their players with anything that can help the players succeed. It’s all about raider IO. It all have come down to being a numbers game. I don’t think that’s what we want in a modern WoW environment.

19 Likes
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Do you think if you’re randomly grouped with people it’ll stop those who don’t think you’re good enough from leaving? I don’t.

Blizzard can put all sorts of things in place, but players have to take responsibility for themselves too. I’ve yet to see a suggestion that would actually improve on things (among the plethora of “ban rio posts”). There have always been and will always be elitist players in the game. You can’t force them to play with you if they don’t want to. If they don’t think that another person is worth playing with, right or wrong, who are you to tell them they must?

I know you’ve mentioned this, but the higher level the content you want to do, the more having friends (be they in a guild or more loosely connected) is going to pay off. If you want to PUG and that’s it, then you’re going to have to accept there will be someone you don’t get on with in every group, no matter how that group is put together, and if it’s more than one person in a group then it’ll probably not be a good time.

5 Likes
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They should remove mythic all toghether. It is just artificial content. It splits the playerbase and feeds the cancer of boosting communities.

7 Likes
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M+ is the most Toxic gamemode in the game right now. A lot of people are just stuck and can not progress. First of all i think timers in games are a huge let down, specially in a an rpg/mmo.

Was looking forward to geting a good key after my +6 Thirna yesterday, but got a tank that just pulled like he was watching Youtube betatesters and ofcourse wiped us. Then he leaves, ruining the time for the rest of the group and i get a minus on my key afte 1 min and 30 sec. Blizz are ok with this as they have not improved this system at all since launch of m+

It is so sad. If you want to keep m+ make it realy punishing for leaving groups. if you stil want to keep thes stupid timers, make other modes that have the same affix and progress for those that do not want timers, make it so you have ways to progress atleas without timers, and so people know that you are joining a non timed dungeon, If you still want your e-sport crap in every aspect of the game, then let there be a +1 chest chance for poeople that run timers,

m+ now is hjust so damn toxic and it is the ONLY way to progress your char when you play casually without a huge guild that Raid.

6 Likes
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I think that people who leave mid-M+ should receive a huge timer before they can rejoin another just like deserter debuff this would make people think twice before leaving and maybe make it an account wide debuff so they cannot just log on an alt and do other dungeons, this would certainly make people think more before they leave a dungeon.

1st Deserter = 30 mins on account, 2nd Deserter = 1hr on account

Increasing every 30 mins with a weekly reset this will stop people hopping in and out of M+ groups after the 1st wipe.

M+ is too toxic I usually state that if im running a key that I want chill people for a casual run no ragers I usually get a relaxed bunch, Just tell people what you want.

The other issue is you have people who watch all these videos of people from high end guilds mass pulling and think “Oh i can do that” but forgetting that these guilds are highly co-ordinated groups of people and not your average pug group.

11 Likes
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The WoW playerbase has ALWAYS been full of toxicity ever since I can remember I remember being raged at in a Molten Core raid in Vanilla because I “ninja,ed” a grek rock item lol

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At least the keys don’t brick anymore. Legion + untimed = good luck running a M+ for literally no loot to unbrick it. Now you can just go one level lower, but it’s not enough.

I honestly think that you can prevent a lot of issues by tweaking your invitation-process ánd by running with as many friends as possible in each run.

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Penalties for leaving would be nice, or some kind of fame/karma system

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It has been the most toxic part of the game since it was introduced since it’s design fosters toxicity. It’s the only PvE alternative to raiding so everyone has an incentive to do it, it’s a speedrunning game mode which is insane in and of itself, and compounds the toxic factor considerably.

There are huge penalties for failing the key with SL especially so when it looks like the key won’t be timed, there’s a 80% chance 1-2 people are leaving that very second. Even just finishing a depleted key is an extremely unsatisfying experience, compared to raiding where the more wipes you have the more satisfying the kill is. One incentivizes people to cooperate, the other draws out the worst in people.

This is Blizzard’s fault for designing a primary PVE area of content in a way that can only attract the most toxic and elitist members of the playerbase.

In BFA I was easily pugging up to +17, now everything above 12 is a nightmare and every key feels like 3-4 levels more difficult compared to BFA, where in turn every key felt harder than Legion. Their idiotic pandering to the top 1% of players and attempts to milk that esports money results in game design that’s detrimental to 99% of the playerbase.

8 Likes
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“I don’t like it, so take it away”.

Mythic+ means more to me than raiding. It feels far more rewarding experience wise than raiding. I don’t PuG, and maybe this is where we differ. I don’t experience that toxic behaviour people nag about, because I keep it to playing with people I know.

Only downside I see with mythic+ is that it is easy to feel left out, as there are only 5 spots in a group, and time of the day playing has to match with others. I can admit I sometimes get grumpy as I don’t get as many runs or as high keys I want, as we run a shortage on tanks when we don’t PuG, and people wanna play together at times. E.g. last werk one of the guild groups ran a mythic with all 3 main tanks in one group. Can’t blame them, they are friends and wanted to play together, so they took on other roles to be able to be one group, but that also meant nobody else could run anything unless pugging that night. However, these are awesome people who do their best to tank runs for as many as possible so people get something done every week! Personally I am not up for a more proper key this week until Monday, but helped an alt tank with a couple of lower keys last night.

Yeah, it is hard to get mythics done, unless you have a very set group, but the content is a ton of fun when you do get to it! Imo anyways. Raiding feels more like a side activity to me at this point.

1 Like
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Your assumption that this would stop or hurt the boosting community is quite naive. What people spent for M+ boosts they will now use for Class/armor/vip stacks in Raids. Or pay more for PvP boosts etc.

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Nothing stops you from not using the LFG system. You don’t even need a guild, or a set team. Just a big pool of friends to ask. You’ll still have the flexibility to pug, but you can forget about rio and queues and every other stuff.

…so essentially RIO + LFD, just worse. What happens right now, is that a party leader sets expectations: the ilevel they want, and the experience (~rio) they want. With your proposal, it would be pretty much the same, just a little worse. With the current system, you can choose people near the expectations. If you make the system allow you to specify ranges, then you’re essentially back to RIO + LFD, but in a more complicated system that’s a pain to prepare.

The automatic system also needs a way to control group composition. You don’t want to end up in a full melee group on storming or prideful. Or without bloodlust. Or if timing a higher key, without a covenant member who can unlock the dungeon bonuses.

By the time you set all that up in the tool so it can auto-select people properly, you could’ve made a team in the current LFD + RIO world. And when such fine-grained filtering is allowed, you’re not helping anyone who currently feels left out, either.

I think you mean the social aspect, the MMO aspect has nothing to do with the current system. If you want to improve the social aspect: after a good run, add people to your friend list, and ask them later when you want to run another key. That is social. An auto-queuing system is everything but.

1 Like
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Well, just seach for amcommunity or guild.

Seems to me ur a pugger who want drastic measures for puggers:)

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Make that 24 hours for the first desertion and 1 week for the second

And allow people the ability to vote to end the run before completion by a 4/5 vote, no one getting penalties.

That would straight up separate the boys from the men

1 Like
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This again? Like, do you not read other threads created about this?

Here we go again though, if there’s a penalty for leaving…

I won’t be the first one to leave. But I play tanks/healers, together with another person most of the time. So, good luck progressing the dungeon when I decide I don’t want to play with the group any longer and just go AFK and cook food etc irl.

1 Like
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They just need to add incentives to completing a key even if it’s depleted. Like a currency, instead of anima, that allows you to buy gear similarly to pvp vendor and upgrade it based on the highest key you’ve completed.

Similar to Echoes of Nyalotha where amount dropped scales based on key level and you expend it on a vendor.

1 Like
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So what you want is Dungeon Finder for M+
Isn’t that going to be even worse?

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That’s ok mate.

Same rules apply for kicking people, a 4/5 vote to kick you nets you a 24 hour deserter debuff first, 1 week for the second offence in that week.

Gives you all the time in the world to do chores around the house

And you could read the rest of my post you know, there’s a way there to get around the debuff without being scummy

1 Like
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Reroll a mge or dh tank and you will be asked in Oribos if you want to join the grp. That is a major issue! The lfd tool is an interesting idear tbh.

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They said they play tank + healer duo. You’re not gonna kick them, and someone else will take the leaver penalty.

That only works if the group votes to disband. If some want to continue, while it would be a colossal waste of time, voting to disband does nothing. Someone will end up eating the penalty.

Do research the other threads of similar nature, where every single penalty anyone ever came up with, has been shown to do more harm than good. This one’s not even one of the better ones. It’s straight up trash with zero thought behind the consequences.