I’m gonna answer this one in particular as a person of Caribbean descent; my one issue with the way Jungle Trolls are portrayed is that a lot of their beliefs are taken directly from Haitian voodoo. As in, Bwamsamdi, or Baron Samdi, is an actual god worshipped throughout several parts of the Caribbean world. Same applies for a lot of the in-game Loa (a term also taken from Haiti); you google them, and you’ll find they were taken name and all from a real belief system.
Does this offend me? Not exactly, but it is very clear laziness of Blizzard’s part to not even re-name the Gods. There’s also the fact these appropriated (I mean in the literal sense) characters are not exactly given any form of respect in the narrative; Damballa, who is a Loa IRL and a Loa in-game, is a single quest mob in Ardenweald that you can skin. If Blizzard wanted to represent Caribbean culture in-game, they could have at least had some originality.
I am not saying it is an issue. You asked for the opinion of someone from that demographic, and I gave it. I am not calling the Norse-mythology appropriation any better; but, at least those gods were given different names to their irl counterparts.
There’s also the fact no one actively worships Odin in the modern day, compared to Haitian and Louisiana voodoo.
This, too. Orcish shamanism in WC3 onwards is heavily inspired by Native American practices, along with the obvious Hunnic/Turkic inspiration on the race as a whole. They are very much coded as “the other”, compared to the Anglo-inspired humans.
But, they don’t, besides in Neo revivals of Norse paganism, which is based on the writings of Christian scholars, since everything we know about Norse mythology is taken from Christian scriptures about the Norse, as opposed to from Nose texts themselves.
That’s not even close to Germanic…but ok.
The Orcs are, if anything at all, based on the Mongolian Horde. Only very ruffly. Aside from the Warhammer Orks (based more on the British Isles).
An actual portrayal of a Germanic-inspired race would be Bronzebeard dwarves, arguably. They’re far less based on the Scots than their accent would have one believe. They even have their own Oktoberfest.
No the Orcs learned their shamanism from the Tauren. In vanilla, the Orcs use totem carvings from Tauren culture.
Also hunnic and Turku? You forgot that they also had druids among their society? (Which in turn leans more towards the depiction of Shamans in WoW)
You also forget that Orcs aswell as Germanics during that time lived in tribes. They weren’t nomads. They had raiding parties, sure but they still lived in tribes.
The Orcs also celebrate their own oktoberfest?
Anyway, Dwarves aren’t germanic, they’re more towards a mix of Scottish/Irish, Celtic/nordic culture.
There are other different pagan depictions other than the church of Christ lmao.
From Warcraft 1, I would give you that. But from 2 and onwards, they shifted from that mongolian inspiration more towards a part of proto german culture.
No way, sorry. You would have to go really a abstract Conan fantasy route to even reach such a thing with them. Even the pelt on their helmets was the “typical fantasy Mongolian thing”.
The Warsong with their wolf riders are also leaning back in to WC1.
Because then you can’t lay claim toward your opinion still holding any value that the Horde is problematic right?
Caesar also describes the pastoral economy of the semi-nomadic Germanic tribes that he encountered across the Danubian frontier. Again, he highlighted the Germanic tribes’ single-minded focus on warfare, recording that-unlike the Romans-they eschewed both wealth and luxury, living off conquest and raiding. For Caesar, this warrior ethos made the Germanic tribes into formidable enemies, and he contrasted the military vigor of the Germanic tribes with that of the more civilized Celts.
According to Tacitus, the Germanic tribes chose their war chieftains according to their merit as military leaders and their feats of valor on the battlefield. Furthermore, these chieftains did not exercise arbitrary authority and ruled only so long as they led their people to victory.
For Tacitus, the secret to the Germanic tribes’ formidable military might was the cohesion of tribal society. The Roman author maintained that unlike the imperial legions of Rome, the Germanic war-bands were composed of clans and families, and their warriors fought alongside their own kinsmen, vying for their respect. In this warrior society, individuals sought the esteem of their peers through conspicuous displays of valor, each seeking to outdo the other in feats of bravery.
Rektem, I suggest you read Lord of The Clans. I feel you’re missing out on a very important aspect of Orcish culture, which is that they were always a shamanistic race from Draenor. You played WoD, didn’t you?
Since when are Germanic peoples the only peoples to live in tribes?
How? Do you have any examples? The only Scottish thing about dwarves is their accent. Their culture is heavily Germanic-inspired, as are most fantasy dwarves daying back to Tolkein.
That isn’t true. There exist only two Norse texts written about their mythology from a Norse-perspective; everything else we know about Norsemen comes from the people they raided. Do you have sources of Norse texts from pre-Christian Scandinavia? If you did, it would be revolutionary. I studied this stuff.
You’re really pushing for your Conan fantasy, huh?
I did?
Why wouldn’t I be able too if they would represent something Germanic? Which they clearly don’t.
It really doesn’t. I know Caesars writings. But once more for you:
The pelt on the Grunts helmets comes from the fantasy Mongolian theme. The Warsong wolfs from HDR Warges and their culture of a wolf riding warrior culture… you guessed it, Mongolian Horde. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/d/dd/Grunt_%28WC2_cinematic%29.gif/revision/latest/top-crop/width/220/height/220?cb=20090503001708
If anyone is depicting anything German they aren’t going to look at Ceases Bello Gallico.
Tyr, Odyn etc. are so on the nose, Blizzard isn’t subtle.
That’s wrong. Orcs are living in clans. Some tribes were also nomadic, like the Warsong.
Trolls are living in tribes (and Empires).
This was the case until someone messed up in BfA and created the first ever Troll clan (and made them extinct lol).
But it’s objectively incorrect to claim orcs learned shamanism from the tauren. The entire orc “arc” is that they were a shamanistic/spiritual people who were corrupted by the fel. Thrall’s arc was re-establishing shamanism within the broken orcish people. Cmon, I even know you played Warcraft 3!!! This was the plot!
Mate… the Norse were a Germanic people. That’s what I was implying. “Germanic” doesn’t mean “German”; the Dutch, the Anglo-Saxons, the Danish, the Swedish, Norweigan - these are all Germanic peoples.
What exactly is your point with this one? My point is that Norse paganism is no longer widely worshipped, and that revival sects are based on potentially inaccurate writings given by Christian monks and missionaries.
Yes. Exactly. Which is why we are arguing Orcs having surface-level traits similar with Germanics doesn’t make them a wholly Germanic-inspired race, where there are other cultures with far greater inspirations.
When did I ever “cry” about Orcs? Quote me on that.
In fact yes, they did. Next to maces and spears, their heavy cavalry is very underrated and rather ignored. They played an important part. The Orcs were meant to be more mele focused like they were in Warhammer.
The tropes you think to see as “germanic” are rather Warhammer like?
I do. It’s rather strange to see anything germanic in them. Like someone that never saw anything Germanic ever. Nothing of the Orcs resembles anything germanic at all. If we want to be generous their axes perhaps, that’s also more later on and more Nordic. At best the hornet helmet trope.
Not the Orcs themselves or their culture, but the Bladmasters without doubt of course, perhaps even the Buring Blade.
Exactly. But there is really nothing Germanic at all in Warhammer Orcs. Their blood rage? Not something that was only described to Germans.
You just described the Mongolian life style of the past. I’m rather sure they were also semi nomadic, no matter, it fits them way closer.
I did not. They got reconnected towards Shamanism thanks to the Taurens. Else vanilla wow, Orc Shamans wouldn’t be using carved totem poles with horns on them.
Thrall was an exception.
I’m not sure but I don’t think you even unlocked Shaman units until you encountered the Tauren.
I was talking about Germanics during the time period of Germannia. Which already had a difference in culture and paganism (wodan/odin)
Not sure if Jamaican voodoo is worshipped widely too? Not as much of a few sects I guess?
What’s the difference? Why is one allowed to hold issue with a depiction but the other is not allowed to do that?
I don’t know why people still try to claim they’re not. Look at Centaurs if you’re so despirate to see mongolians, that culture died out long ago in Orcish depictions.
I see Orcs more as a warrior race inspired by a bunch of warrior societies throughout history mixed together, but I’ll still hold towards my claim that they lean heavily towards Germanics.
At one moment they’re both and another moment they’re not.
If you can’t see that depiction from the text I quoted a post back. That’s fine. Continue to be blind and biased.
Yet a wolf rider suddenly makes everything mongol about them?
You are claiming that they are based upon mongols yet the Centaur already exist ingame.
Lawl, the amount if bias you hold. Mongols weren’t the only nomadics, and Orcs weren’t nomadic. I don’t even know how you lay that claim. Not once were Orcs depicted as nomads.
This just… isn’t true, at all. Do you have any source? What you’re claiming directly contradicts all the lore we have about orcs and shamanism.
Okay, but, that doesn’t change the fact that dwarves are inspired by a Germanic-people, the Norse.
I’m not even talking about Jamaica man, I’m talking about Haiti. Voodoo is a recognised religion in Haiti, representing as much as 4% of a population of 11 million - that is several hundred thousand people in Haiti alone, not counting for Louisiana. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti#Religion
The fact you even got the country wrong shows how little you know about this faith.
Norse paganism revivals, however, have no recognised population count, because it is not an organised faith. There are no churches, or count on any census. The paganism the vikings worshipped is all but dead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathenry_(new_religious_movement)
They assisted the Horde in developing their forgotten shamanic roots.
Why else would Orcs used carved Tauren totems?
Not until Cataclysm did they get their own?