New narrative designer :)

[Qulzan-die-aldor (Qulzan)]

@Rektem-stormscale

I was talking about Germanics during the time period of Germannia. Which already had a difference in culture and paganism (wodan/odin)

Wait you really are? Are Orcs now using oblong shields? Are long pants now somehow something typical for Orcs? Perhaps even dying their hair red (at lest some did according to Roman authors).
I can’t see anything connecting here at all. At best the connecting to Warhammer Fantasy Orks (which are based on the British Isles).

@Qulzan-die-aldor

@Rektem-stormscale

They do but you don’t want to see it because then you can’t cry about it anymore.

When did I ever “cry” about Orcs? Quote me on that.

I am waiting.
When did I ever cry about Orcs?

@Rektem-stormscale

If you can’t see that depiction from the text I quoted a post back. That’s fine. Continue to be blind and biased.

You could perhaps simply describ why in your view they are Germanic. No big axe and loin cloth isn’t Germanic. Not at all. Nordic, or “Viking” (I know, I know raiders) culture also isn’t the same as the Germans during Caesars time. Those didn’t use huge axes for example.

@Rektem-stormscale

Yet a wolf rider suddenly makes everything mongol about them?

Not everything no. The Grunt’s helm, the name Horde, perhaps even some of their huts (meh, not really). Like I wrote before, it’s very loseley and more so based on Warhammer.

@Rektem-stormscale

You are claiming that they are based upon mongols yet the Centaur already exist ingame.

So, the Vyrkul aren’t a thing? And you think Orcs are looking more Germanic than Bronzebeard? Okey then.
Yes Dwarves have their Scottish tint, but even more so for the Wildhammers.

@Rektem-stormscale

Lawl, the amount if bias you hold. Mongols weren’t the only nomadics, and Orcs weren’t nomadic. I don’t even know how you lay that claim. Not once were Orcs depicted as nomads.

Yeah Germans are known to be nomadic…right. Of course not, no one made such a claim. But to look at the HORDE and claim the Orcs as anything else than inspired by the historic Horde seems like a stretch. Not very accurate mind you.
The Warsong are at the very least semi nomadic and there was a time the Orcs were more nomadic on Draenor (because of the Grons etc).

Of course they are a mix, they are a fantasy race very heavily inspired by Warhammers Orks. Your point with axes and spears could also go to the Irish for example.

[Mogi-argent-dawn (Mogi)]

@Rektem-stormscale

Why else would Orcs used carved Tauren totems?
Not until Cataclysm did they get their own?

That is gameplay alone. By your logic, the draenei and trolls also took their shamanism from tauren.

@Rektem-stormscale

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Paganism

What am I supposed to be getting from this? I already linked you the page on contemporary Norse faith. You are comparing a minor, unorganised and underrepresented faith with one of the official religions of a nation. Is Norse paganism an officially-recognised faith in any Scandinavian nation? No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#Religion

“formed in 1996; in 2011, the fellowship had about 300 members.”

300 members, compared to around 400,000.

[Jeeku-argent-dawn]

@Mogi-argent-dawn

That is gameplay alone. By your logic, the draenei and trolls also took their shamanism from tauren.

Thought i’d add to this:

https://wow.fandom.com/wiki/Shaman_totem#:~:text=Totems%20are%20unique%20to%20the,place%20a%20totem%20while%20moving.

The patch notes detail an entire line up of when each race had their own totems, how they were updated, what were added, what were removed and how they were changed over time.

I don’t see anything around lore attached to them.

[Connie-medivh]

@Mogi-argent-dawn

But, they don’t, besides in Neo revivals of Norse paganism, which is based on the writings of Christian scholars, since everything we know about Norse mythology is taken from Christian scriptures about the Norse, as opposed to from Nose texts themselves.

That’s not completely true. Of course the work of Snorri Sturluson is the main source we have when it comes to Norse faith and mythology. But we also learned a lot from archeology, linguistics etc. Even in terms of written content, we do have Roman depictions of Germanic spiritual ways

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

@Rektem-stormscale

Those wakanda references weren’t a thing until last expansion and you know exactly why they did it.

Well, to be honest, they give a rather comfortable mixture that adds on an already exhausted Aztec theme.
To put it simpler, is much more “cinematic”, and less of a headache to write about (you just need to leech from the MCU).

@Rektem-stormscale

No but it’s disgusting that in this thread, the people here go out of their way to get offended by anything.

I wouldn’t let it bother me.
It’s quite usual to have a trendy tendency to hop on the social justice train and make up problems where there are none.

In this case, as someone whose family is literally from Mexico (parents currently live there), and is about to get married to a Mexican fiancé, I can assure you that none of the references towards Mexican ancestry or culture, has EVER bothered me in the slightest.
But I’m sure that there will be someone somewhere, willing to “champion my cause” and “speak in my name” with an outcry about how its all racist or offensive in one way or another.

My advice, just let it go. Not worth the headache.

[Connie-medivh]

I’d also argue that chances are weak that pagans would take offense for their religions’ depictions in WoW, considering how those (mainly Norse and Celtic paganisms) have been used to death in pop culture and all sorts of fictional universe. At this point it just doesn’t really sound disrespectful.
(Calling them “sects”, however… that’s probably a bit off)

[Asjon-stormscale (Asjon)]

@Connie-medivh

I’d also argue that chances are weak that pagans would take offense for their religions’ depictions in WoW, considering how those (mainly Norse and Celtic paganisms) have been used to death in pop culture and all sorts of fictional universe. At this point it just doesn’t really sound disrespectful.
(Calling them “sects”, however… that’s probably a bit off)

So what you’re saying is Mogi has to get used towards his voodoo culture being used everywhere in pop culture, or atleast stuck to Blizzard’s work and get used to it?
I mean that’s fair game I suppose.

@Jeeku-argent-dawn

The patch notes detail an entire line up of when each race had their own totems, how they were updated, what were added, what were removed and how they were changed over time.

Well why would Orcs and Trolls use Tauren totem carvings then? I thought the Shamanism under the Horde was heavily influenced by the Tauren.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

What am I supposed to be getting from this? I already linked you the page on contemporary Norse faith. You are comparing a minor, unorganised and underrepresented faith with one of the official religions of a nation. Is Norse paganism an officially-recognised faith in any Scandinavian nation? No.

Orcs society is all about strength = power and dying gloriously on the battlefiedl. There is a correlation between the two. Name it however you want.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

By your logic, the draenei

The Draenei had other totem carvings.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

and trolls

Gameplay mechanics, lorewise most Troll shamans are just witch doctors.

@Qulzan-die-aldor

HORDE and claim the Orcs as anything else than inspired by the historic Horde seems like a stretch. Not very accurate mind you.

All that the Orcs have taken from real life mongols is the literal mongol name “Horde” aswell as the Orc depicted on Warcraft 1.

Chieftains, Warchiefs, all were terms in Germanic culture.

@Qulzan-die-aldor

So, the Vyrkul aren’t a thing? And you think Orcs are looking more Germanic than Bronzebeard? Okey then.
Yes Dwarves have their Scottish tint, but even more so for the Wildhammers.

Culture wise the Orcs look more like Vikings and Germanics. Because their whole society is build around strength = might and power, aswell as dying gloriously on the battlefield, in battle, etc.

So no. I don’t think the Dwarves look like Germanics in the slightest culture sense.

And yes, the Vrykul are a thing, but they came later in WotLK, when the Orcs were already established as that trope.

@Qulzan-die-aldor

Not everything no. The Grunt’s helm, the name Horde, perhaps even some of their huts (meh, not really). Like I wrote before, it’s very loseley and more so based on Warhammer.

The grunt’s helm is a helm with spikes, a hollywood depiction of Vikings in movies. A very common trope among barbaric invaders aswell.

@Qulzan-die-aldor

You could perhaps simply describ why in your view they are Germanic. No big axe and loin cloth isn’t Germanic. Not at all. Nordic, or “Viking” (I know, I know raiders) culture also isn’t the same as the Germans during Caesars time. Those didn’t use huge axes for example.

Pretty simple, Orcs love raiding, pillaging and war. Their whole philosophy is build around dying in battle, “going to my ancestors and theirs before them”, honoring their warriors, etc.

I mean yeah, they’re based upon Conan.
Just look at the Lords of War: Grommash Hellscream.

[Mogi-argent-dawn (Mogi)]

@Asjon-stormscale

So what you’re saying is Mogi has to get used towards his voodoo culture being used everywhere in pop culture, or atleast stuck to Blizzard’s work and get used to it?

I never once complained about voodoo being portrayed in-game, and if that’s what you took from my posts, I don’t see much heed in replying to the rest of yours.

What I did say was that comparing Haitian voodoo, an official state religion of Haiti, to a revival group of Scandi’s who decided to reconstruct Norse faith, is redundant and reductive. They are incomparable.

[Jeeku-argent-dawn]

@Asjon-stormscale

Well why would Orcs and Trolls use Tauren totem carvings then? I thought the Shamanism under the Horde was heavily influenced by the Tauren.

Perhaps because the Horde totem models at the time had only one model and the fact that Draenei were the only shamans that were playable in comparison to the other side had their own model?

You can’t just say one thing is gameplay mechanics and the other is factual lore? Isn’t that just cherrypicking?

I specifically drew from the source around Totems in Warcraft, and how the patches edited them to give each race its own identity model of a totem. There was nothing that said these totems and thus the shamanistic connection and its restoration, promotion was influenced by the Tauren because of the basic totem model you are given.

If you have a more direct source instead of “Hey, Tauren Totem model, therefore my argument is irrefutable!”, i’d like to see it.

[Mogi-argent-dawn (Mogi)]

Draenei also learned their shamanism on Draenor, to add to Jeeku’s point. They learned it independently of the orcs and tauren. Arguing they took their inspiration from tauren is, frankly, borderline trolling.

[Jeeku-argent-dawn]

I just found it strange that this was heavily argued for, when Shamans were the first thing I played and explored since starting in the transition point between TBC and Wrath.

Nowhere did I see Horde shamanism was at base influenced by Tauren culture because of the totem model. In fact, other totem models for the Horde already existed, such as the Serpent Ward. They just weren’t put on for the playable race.

[Asjon-stormscale (Asjon)]

@Mogi-argent-dawn

I never once complained about voodoo being portrayed in-game, and if that’s what you took from my posts, I don’t see much heed in replying to the rest of yours.

I thought you took offense to it in one of your comments, my bad.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

They learned it independently of the orcs and tauren. Arguing they took their inspiration from tauren is, frankly, borderline trolling.

I never said Draenei took their inspiration from the Tauren.

@Jeeku-argent-dawn

I just found it strange that this was heavily argued for, when Shamans were the first thing I played and explored since starting in the transition point between TBC and Wrath.

I always was under the impression that the Tauren assisted Thrall with bring back the reconnection with the elements and the Orcs.

[Mogi-argent-dawn (Mogi)]

Because it’s frankly untrue. The basis of the orc “plot” is that they were a heavily shamanistic race prior to their corruption; we see this in WoD, and in any novel concerning The Old Horde.

They saw an ally in the tauren because they were both shamanistic, especially in Thrall’s New Horde. This is the plot of Warcraft 3’s Horde campaign.

@Asjon-stormscale

I thought you took offense to it in one of your comments, my bad.

Nah, I don’t care about WoW having voodoo in it, it’s cool. My complaint was that the Loa names are taken directly from IRL Haitian Loa, which I find lazy.

[Connie-medivh]

@Asjon-stormscale

So what you’re saying is Mogi has to get used towards his voodoo culture being used everywhere in pop culture, or atleast stuck to Blizzard’s work and get used to it?
I mean that’s fair game I suppose.

Of course not. No religion/culture deserves to be turned into a joke only fit for cartoon purposes.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

@Connie-medivh

No religion/culture deserves to be turned into a joke only fit for cartoon purposes.

There is a difference between being used as a “joke” and as an inspiration for fiction settings.

Taking umbrage in the latter, may be indicative of an overzealous approach regarding any religion that should be checked on a personal level. And referring to WoW, we’ve never had the former.

I mean, it’s no secret that even Christianity has had its own particular take in WoW. And not always as the positive outlook presented by the Church of the Holy Light. In fact, we may have had as of now, a much more negative light casted over it (Scarlet Crusade).

[Connie-medivh]

Well I kinda agree. When I was talking about cultures being turned into mere pop jokes I was not referring about WoW specifically… more about stuff like, the fact that Norse faith has been deprived of its cultural reality and substance to the point where Thor is now mostly a Marvel hero. I do think THAT is pretty humiliating

EDIT : crap like the typical cartoon villain with the voodoo doll too. This image has completely slipped into fictional occidental collective conscience. That’s just lame

[Jeeku-argent-dawn]

Being into the influences of Mythos and Religion myself, I think it has always been an ongoing thing to draw inspiration, but to also make their own sources out of it. It has actually been only a modern thing when people started looking back at something, and started feeling offended about it rather than looking at the positives that the inspiration had bought.

Let’s use your Marvel Thor for example. Thor in the MCU has been one of the originals - as far as I know - even before I was born. People liked to read their superheroes and even then he was barely linked to the mythology and religion he is related to.

Back then, he was just a superhero with a winged helmet and a hammer that didn’t at all look like the real rendition. Yet at that same time, people weren’t offended by it, they loved seeing this hero in a collective of other heroes. Trends and perceptions have changed then, and unfortunately the creative industry is also being highlighted with this same light, which is now severely affecting what these minds can produce because almost instantly, someone, somewhere will get offended by it.

Yet this has always been a thing. Creative products we know today have always had a sense of appropriation and reinterpretation from the traditional norm. Whilst that is bad in some cases - and overall it can devalue the traditions of which they came from - it really isn’t as bad as some make them out to be because of what they’ve become over time.

For example:

Why isn’t anyone getting angry over the fact that certain brand logos are exact appropriation of certain famous myths? Because they sell a good product? etc.

[Connie-medivh]

@Jeeku-argent-dawn

even then he was barely linked to the mythology and religion he is related to.

Back then, he was just a superhero with a winged helmet and a hammer that didn’t at all look like the real rendition

Okay look, I know close to zero about MCU, but from what I’ve read his MCU lore involves Asgard, Hela, Loki, freaking Ragnarok… Heck there’s even a Valkyrie in the cast. How can you say he’s “barely linked to the mythology and religion he is related to” when his lore as a modern fictional character is made up of half the Norse mythology elements we know about ?
And actually, him being just a “guy with a winged helmet and a hammer” lost within in a crew of aliens, robots and other fantasy monsters would be even more insulting. Cause he used to be (and arguably still is, to a way lesser extent) one of the most holy figures to actual people. Not just a guy with a winged helmet and a hammer.

Anyway. I’m growing tired of this “people nowadays get offended by everything” stuff. First because I never said it was offensive to draw inspiration from religions and cultures - for the record I do think WoW is generally decently respectful when it does so. Second because it’s not about being offended, it’s about understanding that turning those into mere pop culture aesthetics to make money off is crappy. Imo it takes away their dignity as actual, sometimes multimillenial cultural objects.

[Jeeku-argent-dawn]

Right.

@Connie-medivh

Okay look, I know close to zero about MCU, but from what I’ve read his MCU lore involves Asgard, Hela, Loki, freaking Ragnarok… Heck there’s even a Valkyrie in the cast. How can you say he’s “barely linked to the mythology and religion he is related to” when his lore as a modern fictional character is made up of half the Norse mythology elements we know about ?

First of all: The power of Context is BEAUTIFUL!

“People liked to read their superheroes and even then he was barely linked to the mythology and religion he is related to.”

Back then, he was just a superhero with a winged helmet and a hammer that didn’t at all look like the real rendition.

I did not in any way say he’s ‘just a guy with a winged helmet’ now. I was referencing how he was in the past and how inoffended people were. Did you read my post, or just got instantly angry and just flailed…?

@Connie-medivh

Cause he used to be (and arguably still is, to a way lesser extent) one of the most holy figures to actual people. Not just a guy with a winged helmet and a hammer.

But that’s what i’m saying.

WHERE were these angry claimants in the past when he was created?
WHY was he still enjoyed as a superhero despite being an obvious appropriation towards a myth?

Once again, As I say yet again, that creative minds in the past were less afraid and that this offended-by-cultural-appropriation is part of the sensitive mindset that is affecting other forms of industry as well.

@Connie-medivh

Anyway. I’m growing tired of this “people nowadays get offended by everything” stuff. First because I never said it was offensive to draw inspiration from religions and cultures - for the record I do think WoW is generally decently respectful when it does so.

Great. I wasn’t targetting you specifically. Do me the same courtesy and understand what I wrote

@Connie-medivh

Second because it’s not about being offended, it’s about understanding that turning those into mere pop culture aesthetics to make money off is crappy. Imo it takes away their dignity as actual, sometimes multimillenial cultural objects.

But it has always been this way. I guarantee that if you give me a past mythological or religious form of material, you’ll be able to see that it was inspired or reinterpreted from something of a tradition. Yes, it’s crappy to do so, but this is literally just shaking your fist at something that has been around you for generations now.

[Connie-medivh]

@Jeeku-argent-dawn

First of all: The power of Context is BEAUTIFUL!

“People liked to read their superheroes and even then he was barely linked to the mythology and religion he is related to.”

Back then, he was just a superhero with a winged helmet and a hammer that didn’t at all look like the real rendition.

I did not in any way say he’s ‘just a guy with a winged helmet’ now. I was referencing how he was in the past and how inoffended people were. Did you read my post, or just got instantly angry and just flailed…?

I understood your use of “then” as meaning “back then he was just a guy with a hammer, but now people have changed their perception about him”. Fair enough then : as I said I know very little about MCU, and I may misinterpret sentences cause my english is not the best.
However I certainly did not get angry in any way ?? You’re the one sounding rather agressive here.

@Jeeku-argent-dawn

I guarantee that if you give me a past mythological or religious form of material, you’ll be able to see that it was inspired or reinterpreted from something of a tradition.

Huh… yes, religions do not come out of the void, nor does language, nor does anything really. European paganisms as well as Hinduism most likely originate from the proto-indo-european religion for example. What is your point ? How does it compare to fiction and pop culture ? Unlike Vrykuls, LotR Dwarves and MCU Thor, religions, no matter how reappropriated from ancient bases, are reality for the people who follow them. Vrykuls, LotR Dwarves and MCU Thor aren’t reality to anyone.