New narrative designer :)

[Jeeku-argent-dawn]

@Connie-medivh

I understood your use of “then” as meaning “back then he was just a guy with a hammer, but now people have changed their perception about him”. Fair enough then : as I said I know very little about MCU, and I may misinterpret sentences cause my english is not the best.

Good idea to re-read things then if you aren’t so sharp with the language you need to argue with. Context matters.

@Connie-medivh

However I certainly did not get angry in any way ?? You’re the one sounding rather agressive here.

Yeah, I know right…

Why would someone get angry at their post not being read correctly and then getting whipped for it. Right.

@Connie-medivh

How does it compare to fiction and pop culture ?

Why do I need to re-write it a third time?

@Jeeku-argent-dawn

Yes, it’s crappy to do so, but this is literally just shaking your fist at something that has been around you for generations now.

This was the sentence after the one you picked. Let’s just put that out there first.

I get what you’re trying to say, but I repeat yet again that this kind of creative content is not a strange thing and that feeling offended by it is rather oddly new and often wierdly put. I’m not saying at all that people should not feel offended at all when their culture, myth and religion is made in such a way, but it goes the same direction for those they’re feeling offended by.

This was done and repeated in pop-culture, fiction and whatever fantasy material you can think of that has existed long in the past, today and quite likely also in the future. Call it inspiration, appropriation or whatever you want. They still use and have used mythos and religion as a basis to these works.

My point is just that ^^^.

Just to repeat: No, I’m not saying YOU in specific are getting offended by this.

[Qulzan-die-aldor (Qulzan)]

@Asjon-stormscale

Chieftains, Warchiefs, all were terms in Germanic culture.

Warchief is not German, it’s Native American and chieftain is pretty much universal. Can you reech even more?.

@Asjon-stormscale

Culture wise the Orcs look more like Vikings and Germanics. Because their whole society is build around strength = might and power, aswell as dying gloriously on the battlefield, in battle, etc.

So no. I don’t think the Dwarves look like Germanics in the slightest culture sense.

And yes, the Vrykul are a thing, but they came later in WotLK, when the Orcs were already established as that trope.

I’m just amusing now you don’t even know what you are talking about. That’s so nonsensical. From the helmet, to the armor and shields, glyph’s… oh boy.

@Asjon-stormscale

The grunt’s helm is a helm with spikes, a hollywood depiction of Vikings in movies. A very common trope among barbaric invaders aswell.

You are forgetting the pelt and that Mongols in fantasy are often depicted with such helmets. It’s very close to the Warhammer helms.

@Asjon-stormscale

Pretty simple, Orcs love raiding, pillaging and war. Their whole philosophy is build around dying in battle, “going to my ancestors and theirs before them”, honoring their warriors, etc.

So you’re saying that’s what ancient Germans were all about for you? Uff.
If you can give me even one example for anything German and not only “strong unga bunga, horns”, that would be cool.
You can see it as you wish. Be it that way.

[Asjon-stormscale (Asjon)]

@Qulzan-die-aldor

Warchief is not German, it’s Native American and chieftain is pretty much universal. Can you reech even more?.

What about Warlord? Chieftain is pretty much universal but wouldn’t they be using the title Khan if they were fully mongolian?

@Qulzan-die-aldor

I’m just amusing now you don’t even know what you are talking about. That’s so nonsensical. From the helmet, to the armor and shields, glyph’s… oh boy.

Really now? Yet no argumentation given towards the philosophy of the Orcs.

@Qulzan-die-aldor

You are forgetting the pelt and that Mongols in fantasy are often depicted with such helmets. It’s very close to the Warhammer helms.

Pelts are an universal thing.

@Qulzan-die-aldor

So you’re saying that’s what ancient Germans were all about for you? Uff.
If you can give me even one example for anything German and not only “strong unga bunga, horns”, that would be cool.
You can see it as you wish. Be it that way.

Well, you see it as unga bunga, horn, yet I never specifically said it was that way.

There’s a connection made between Germanic and Nordic, that they’re the same kind.
Pointing out that their society was based around dying gloriously in the battlefield, to “outhonor” eachother by bravery or feats of strength is somehow a weird concept to you? But you supposedly agree that Nordic descent are Germanic aswell.

Uff, all you talk about is some kind of weird depiction of their Warcraft 1 image, while that hasn’t been a thing for a long time, uff.

[Mogi-argent-dawn (Mogi)]

@Asjon-stormscale

Pointing out that their society was based around dying gloriously in the battlefield, to “outhonor” eachother by bravery or feats of strength is somehow a weird concept to you?

That isn’t unique the the orcs. You’re also ignoring the fact that Warcraft includes the Nordic pantheon, who are directly connected to the dwarves and humans - humans even worship Tyr, who is both a Norse God and Titan Watcher. The orcs have no reverence for the Norse/Titan pantheon; they worship their ancestors, the spirits, and a shamanism blatantly based on Native American philosophies.

It’s absurd to suggest orcs are based on Norse-Germanics solely based on being a warlike people who wore pelts. This applies also the The Zulu, the ancient Britons, and… practically any tribal society, of which orcs are an amalgamation.

No one is suggesting orcs are solely based on Mongolians; but, there are far more Mongol features than Germanic, especially when they differ so much from the races that are actually based on Germanic peoples (dwarves, humans, vrykul, Drust).

The ancient Germanics were far more than just tribal people who wore furs and engaged in warfare; they had a vast culture, with very few crossovers into orcish lore. Have you read Chronicles 2? That goes into a lot of orcish culture; fun fact, a lot of orcs have Hungarian names, another Steppe people.

EDIT:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Orc
And I quote:
“Orcs are largely based upon Balkan and West Asian (particularly Turkish) mythologies, with other varied and specific elements from other cultures.”

Wowpedia is a Blizzard-supported source.

[Asjon-stormscale (Asjon)]

@Mogi-argent-dawn

That isn’t unique the the orcs. You’re also ignoring the fact that Warcraft includes the Nordic pantheon, who are directly connected to the dwarves and humans - humans even worship Tyr, who is both a Norse God and Titan Watcher.

This only came out in WotLK.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

The orcs have no reverence for the Norse/Titan pantheon

The Orcs are a product of the Titans though.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

they worship their ancestors

That’s a world wide thing.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

the spirits

Also seen in multiple societies based through history

@Mogi-argent-dawn

a shamanism blatantly based on Native American philosophies.

Not exactly so.
You somehow think that the Tauren’s way of Shamanism speaks to all members of the Horde, while the Orcs simply put revered the elements for the raw power of the elements it brought.
The Orcs see the elementals as their Gods and use their power to bring more things to the battlefield. Kind of the same way the Vikings revered Thor, God of Thunder.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

It’s absurd to suggest orcs are based on Norse-Germanics solely based on being a warlike people who wore pelts

Because you casually ignore the statement I made that Orcs do have a connection towards Germanic/nordic philosophy about dying on the battlefield and honoring their ancestors this way?

@Mogi-argent-dawn

No one is suggesting orcs are solely based on Mongolians; but, there are far more Mongol features than Germanic

No there aren’t.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

especially when they differ so much from the races that are actually based on Germanic peoples (dwarves, humans, vrykul, Drust).

Dwarves aren’t based upon Germanic peoples at all. I don’t know where you take this connection from.

Also, quoting Tolkien’s work doesn’t help much. Considering that Orcs were mutated Elves in Tolkien’s universe.
Tolkien’s also saw the Germans as barbaric people, industrial and savage, I’ll add.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

EDIT:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Orc
And I quote:
“Orcs are largely based upon Balkan and West Asian (particularly Turkish) mythologies, with other varied and specific elements from other cultures.”

Haha, but that’s not a Blizzard-supported source though? Those are just claims.

[Mogi-argent-dawn (Mogi)]

@Asjon-stormscale

This only came out in WotLK.

Lore is lore mate, whenever it came out.

@Asjon-stormscale

The Orcs are a product of the Titans though.

They are also completely unaware of this fact, as Chronicles shows. They have their own creation myths.

@Asjon-stormscale

You somehow think that the Tauren’s way of Shamanism speaks to all members of the Horde

No, Asjon, that was your claim. You claimed the orcs learned their shamanism from the tauren, when they in fact have been a spiritual people from their inception of Draenor.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Orc
Just to the “Culture” section to learn more about orcs and their spirituality.

@Asjon-stormscale

No there aren’t.

You have listed one; that being, orcs enjoy the glory of battle. In comparison:

• Orcish building styles resemble yurts, and early warcraft fur hats for the Orcs resemble Mongolian head coverings.

• The word “Horde” comes from the Eurasian Steppe term Orda, associated particularly with Turkic and Mongolian peoples, and means things along the line of camp or seat of power.

• The way the Frostwolf clan became the foremost leader of the Orcs resembles how the Ashina clan which claims descent and ties to wolves, ruled over various Turkic empires. Likewise, the spirit of the great wolf in Orcish myth resembles the spirit of the gray wolf Asena

• The word “Mag’har” is a direct reference to the name of the Hungarian language, “Magyar”

@Asjon-stormscale

Dwarves aren’t based upon Germanic peoples at all. I don’t know where you take this connection from.

The fact that they are direct copies of Tolkien dwarves, who are based upon both Norse and Hebrew mythology. You have no source to imply anything otherwise; they have Scottish accents, and that’s the end of the association. The dwarves were created by the Norse-inspired Titans, and even worship them as their creators; they are also the founders of Brewfest, a festival based on Oktoberfest (which later spread the The Horde).

@Asjon-stormscale

Haha, but that’s not a Blizzard-supported source though? Those are just claims.

They are entirely sourced claims; feel free to browse the article and each and every source it provides.

You would have saved yourself a lot of effort just with a cursory glance of the orc wowpedia page, which has numerous sourced explanations of the cultures of which the Turkic-inspired orcs are derived from. If you refuse to read it, then there’s little use arguing, as you clearly have no intention of believing any viewpoint barring your own. The denial of the orcs’ Turkic influences is ignorance; they have only gotten more Turkic as they develop through the games, far more now than they were in WC1.

If you’re a roleplayer, and want to play an orc inspired by Germanic mythology, nothing’s stopping you. Play whatever you feel like playing; but asserting your headcanon as fact helps no one, especially not yourself.

[Asjon-stormscale (Asjon)]

@Mogi-argent-dawn

Lore is lore mate, whenever it came out.

But you’re missing the phrase in your last link

• The way the Orcs descend from the one-eyed Grond and his descendants, whose body created parts of the landmass of Draenor, resembles how Ymir the father of all Jotunn was turned into the earth and his children became the Giants and eventually mixed into humanity and the gods.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

They are also completely unaware of this fact, as Chronicles shows

Chronicles has already been retconned and showed “the viewpoint of the Titans”.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

No, Asjon, that was your claim. You claimed the orcs learned their shamanism from the tauren, when they in fact have been a spiritual people from their inception of Draenor.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Orc
Just to the “Culture” section to learn more about orcs and their spirituality.

There is a distinction with the way the Tauren honor the spirits and the elements and the Orcs do.
Taurens take a more native american approach towards their whole culture, while the Orcs revere the elementals in a different way.

It’s true that the Orcs revered the Elements for their raw power. Which is why they dropped the elements and went all the way with the Fel magic.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

Orcish building styles resemble yurts, and early warcraft fur hats for the Orcs resemble Mongolian head coverings.

Funny how you point out that it’s not a Conan canon, but these were also used in Conan literally lol.
Also, those buildings you see are long gone, and burrows can be linked towards a Viking shieldwall.
Literally anyone can write out these claims on the site and form some kind of “connection”. It’s not hard to do.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

The word “Horde” comes from the Eurasian Steppe term Orda, associated particularly with Turkic and Mongolian peoples, and means things along the line of camp or seat of power.

I do acknowledge that the Horde was an inspiration from the Mongols, but I also stated that they lost that image and inspiration over the years since their depiction of Warcraft 1.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

The way the Frostwolf clan became the foremost leader of the Orcs resembles how the Ashina clan which claims descent and ties to wolves, ruled over various Turkic empires. Likewise, the spirit of the great wolf in Orcish myth resembles the spirit of the gray wolf Asena

There was also a Germanic clan revering the wolf, actually two of them.

• Wulfling clan
• the Hundings

One was a clan out of Beowulf and other norse sagas, the other one was a Germanic clan throughout history.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

The fact that they are direct copies of Tolkien dwarves, who are based upon both Norse and Hebrew mythology. You have no source to imply anything otherwise; they have Scottish accents, and that’s the end of the association. The dwarves were created by the Norse-inspired Titans, and even worship them as their creators

Tolkien’s depiction of Dwarves are based upon a Norse folklore actually.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

they are also the founders of Brewfest, a festival based on Oktoberfest (which later spread the The Horde).

That’s Blizzard mixing various beer cultures together.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

They are entirely sourced claims; feel free to browse the article and each and every source it provides.

That’s not really sources, those are just claims linking towards wikipedia articles.

@Mogi-argent-dawn

but asserting your headcanon as fact helps no one, especially not yourself.

Take note of your own words my man.

[Mogi-argent-dawn (Mogi)]

@Asjon-stormscale

But you’re missing the phrase in your last link

Yep, that’s the one and only Norse comparison; where did I say there are none?

@Asjon-stormscale

Chronicles has already been retconned and showed “the viewpoint of the Titans”.

… if this were the case, then, you have no claim that associates orcs with the Titans, as that was entirely within Choricles. The thing you quoted above? Chronicles.

@Asjon-stormscale

It’s true that the Orcs revered the Elements for their raw power.

Read the culture section, like I said. I am not talking about the elements, I am talking about their pre-Gul’dan spirituality.

@Asjon-stormscale

Also, those buildings you see are long gone

Source? I’m in Orgrimmar right now, looking at one.

@Asjon-stormscale

since their depiction of Warcraft 1.

But… you acknowledged the yurts are in-game, which was updated in Cataclysm, 2011. They also use yurts in WoD, 2014.

@Asjon-stormscale

There was also a Germanic clan revering the wolf, actually two of them.

The spirit wolf “Asena” is directly based on the clan “Ashina”. Also, the fact the orcs live in clans, and operate within the Horde, named after the Mongolian Golden Horde from the 1200s.

@Asjon-stormscale

Tolkien’s depiction of Dwarves are based upon a Norse folklore actually.

… yes? That’s exactly what I said.

@Asjon-stormscale

That’s not really sources, those are just claims linking towards wikipedia articles.

They are claims based on in-game lore.

If you’re genuinely going to be purposely ignorant of any and every piece of evidence put before you, I don’t see any use in you replying, when you haven’t given a single source to support your claim of “orcs are vikings cos they like war”. That is such a shallow and reductive view of Norse mythology.

This is the equivalent of saying pandaren are based upon Indian culture because they sell a curry item in-game, and then denying they have any Chinese influence whatsoever.

[Qulzan-die-aldor (Qulzan)]

@Asjon-stormscale

What about Warlord?

Nothing German either.
Also: The name hasn’t to be the same because at some point it’s getting boring and it’s fantasy. Like Khan in 40K is a bit bland.

@Asjon-stormscale

@Qulzan-die-aldor

You are forgetting the pelt and that Mongols in fantasy are often depicted with such helmets. It’s very close to the Warhammer helms.

Pelts are an universal thing.

Sure. However pelt like this is often a fantasy trope for Mongolian inspired themes. Like I argued before, the influence of Warhammer is strong.

• https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammerfb/images/2/25/Ghazak_Khan_Dogs_of_War_5th_Edition_illustration.png/revision/latest?cb=20200514144105
• https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammerfb/images/2/2b/Warhammer_Oglah_Khan%27s_Wolfboys.png/revision/latest?cb=20170810120210
• https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/b6/33/49b633ba3df1c3cb77cd201e81280349.jpg

WC III
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wh40khomebrew/images/2/29/Gib_Wood.gif/revision/latest?cb=20200605145114

@Asjon-stormscale

Well, you see it as unga bunga, horn, yet I never specifically said it was that way.

Sounds to me like this was your argument. You also ignored everything way more “Germanic” the Dwarves are using as inspiration. Take alone the runes and their helmets. Yes clearly more Nordic, but closer.

Also: Warrior cultures were rather wide spread.

@Asjon-stormscale

Uff, all you talk about is some kind of weird depiction of their Warcraft 1 image, while that hasn’t been a thing for a long time, uff.

Wrong. I’m not using only WC1. You don’t have anything that’s really uniquely Germanic in nature at all. It’s so extremely strange. You have your view, that’s ok, that’s it.