New Rogue PvP talent in 10.1 is exactly what's wrong with the game

PVP Arenas
113

But they include you? So you’ve had your fun on this alleged 3 times Glad Rogue(show it to us), but new players should be punished for you having frustrated other players in the past? Rogue in AWC doesn’t prove anything. Like I said in an earlier post, pro players like Whaaz, Shadenox and Pikaboo can make the class work even at a disadvantage. However, if an avg player needs a 2200mmr effort to win at 1600 something is wrong. This I say as an example. There’s solo shuffle without communication to consider aswell. Does the current iteration of an 1800 Subtlety in solo shuffle speak more about individual skill level than a past OP state rogue in a team setting with communication, like you’re flaunting? Who knows. Might not be as far away as you’d imagine.
Do we not allow certain classes to participate in that content? Anyway, if a 3500 player can cause hell with a certain class it doesn’t mean the 95% of the rest should be punished. In a game like DOTA2 Invoker’s balanced around his basic kit. On top of that, if you’re a really good player and can use his whole kit, you can wreak absolute havoc. This gives you a reason to pick him for fun aswell as a reason to research and get better with him. He’s not rendered useless because of potential at top 1% rating. People have found it fun trying to crack the code of certain comps aswell. You as this alleged Glad rogue you are should find that very easy and worry about other comps instead of spending large amounts of time weekly asking for an absolutely unsustainable state for rogues.

You’ve said this over and over. We’ve responded. Every other person on here, before you come spewing crap, is discussing how to evenly balance the classes without homogenizing the gameplay even further.

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114

I mostly agree

Not sure if you mean sustain, but I’m fine with our out of Shadow Dance state, but I’d like for it to chunk more in goes with Evis and Shadowstrike and being able to opt out of Sec Tech completely. I dislike relying on Rupture with Replicating Shadows for sustain, especially since we can’t brawl but have to unless spending the combo points from our burst window. I don’t like Shadowed Finishers, it could rather be reworked to a flat Evis buff or Evis dealing 100% Shadow but no additional damage. I don’t know what the number would have to be. I want the current state of Sec Tech as an option just because I want options. I’ve been advocating for the return of talent trees for years only to find myself with less options on many classes. But all in all, I agree with Cazzette’s post in my Sub Rogue thread.

Completely agree, I dislike that I see 20k Garrote crits compared to 7.5k Mutilates. I don’t feel much impact from the rotation itself, the reponse is mostly delayed in dots. Some rearrangement of the damage would be great. I saw Atahalni mention in the Stealth discussion open up with bleeds and run pillar, which I don’t think is always that free, but anyhow, it would make that much less impactful. Also here I would advocate more options in the talent tree. Like in Shadowlands we had Sepsis for more cheese plays and Bone Spike for sustain.

This I don’t think would work anymore with the changes coming in 10.1. Sap’s already getting 2 sec nerf aswell as being uniquely on opener in that you can’t Blind > Sap anymore. So with a nerf to speed, I think this could potentially make Sap a rare sight.

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I think the problem with sub is that in DF they have always been at either subpar dmg or capable of reaching crazy burst windows by stacking. I want to heavily reduce the stacking for crazy burst windows such that the core mechanics of the class are more solid. :slight_smile:

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While I understand why some people ask for this, I don’t think this is any good. The game is way too fast, and every single class is way too mobile for this to work. When CPs were target locked people didn’t die in 3s to one person with 1min CDs, and people didn’t have 17 teleports alongside 32 dashes so it wasn’t horrible to primarily go for one target. Right now people can dance around you so easily that you’d be useless, because hitting their friend when they go away would reset your CPs so people would just hit Rogue for 3 globals, mess around while the teammate stays in, and the Rogue could only get absolutely destroyed without hitting back by the teammate (imagine warrior/ret), pr reset CPs.

The “behind the target” this is cool, as it used to be one of the prime mechanic of Sub when it wasn’t a braindead spec. I wonder how it would fit in the game right now as, same problem, people are overly mobile, but it could maybe be nice. But then other classes also need to get a bit more depth that obly allows them to do max damage while using their brains, otherwise it would only widen the gap between Rogue and, say, RET.

Hehe please no.

Cloak was always the same as it is now, only it had lower cooldown for the longest time and was only increased to 2min with a recent expansion.

Yes, I don’t quite like Deathmark. To me it would be part of the things that should change if we made Assa deal less DoT damage and more direct damage. Give Vendetta back ! Or give a similar CD that increase other stuff than DoTs.

Yes. When facing Preservation it is a better play to not use it at all, because if you do he gets to dispel it so you lose more damage than if you didn’t use it, but then he also gets to use his bleed dispel 1min later on cooldown (as it’ll still be ready for the next DM then) and that really hurts your overall pressure. Meanwhile if you don’t press it, he never dispels. Amazing design right. I wish we could dispel wings hm.

The highroll !

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117

Rogues are not S tier for the first time in 18 years and they loose their minds. welcome to the gutter where the rest of us plebs have been living the last decade.

if it were for me they can make rogue unplayable. i woulndt shed a single tear if i will never see a rogue again in my life

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118

A black part in my WoW history.

Nobody asked you to.

That might be your perspective, but ever thought about that some people might think you and all the other pitiful rogue defender are spewing the crap here?

It does prove that the class can compete on the top level. Isn’t that enough? If you can’t handle your class, is that really a topic to discuss or should you just pick another class then? Isn’t balance meant that classes are around the same on ALL skill levels?

I mean, the class changes I think about would barely affect the 95% you are talking about, as they can’t get the maximum out of the class anyways, so what is the issue?

I do that too, but you just don’t get it. I am saying that rogue is broken because its class design is broken. As long as they don’t fix it, the class can’t be balanced.

The devs think its fine to just balance classes around damage, tank and defensives but they leave cc, offensive tools like healing reduction and comp balance alone, which are as important!

That is what they need to change or better to extend! CC and offensive tools have to be constantly put to the test and they have to start working on the comp balance too, not specifically on the class strength.

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Your one guy who thinks its ok to gaslight and manipulate everyone on the forum to agree with you subjective narcissistic opinion about the rogue. People are defending reality.

You are one person. We are literally now a large group of people defending the rogue class, while you sit as a solo person shouting your subjective agendas out. Its getting pathetic now, but I guess we are the joke here, because we keep giving you your narcissistic supply.

No. Stop calling it balance that you want to reduce the class you hate to dust. We get it, you don’t like rogues, but please stop this charade. It’s getting tiresome to have to deal with a reality-bending narcissist while we try and debate how to balance the classes we play.

Reread everything Shadenox amongst many others have written about the rogue class. People regularly call out when they think a change would be too strong, and we are also regularly discussing nerfs that could be meaningful. We are having an interesting debate, and you keep jumping in telling us you think our class is best left in the gutter. It has no value and it is incredibly embarrassing behavior.

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I really think rogue need some more defensives in that meta, have you tried playing rogue against ret war ?

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Ridiculous. But again, show it. You’re backing up nothing. But yeah, you act like a rogue, you got 100% uptime on Evasion dodging all our arguments.

Yeah, of course a hater would define my discussing within reason as crap. I don’t hate on any class though, I want to fight as many combinations of classes as possible, on the most equal terms possible, on all of my characters. When I meet rogues I feel more confident because I know it, you should too mr. Glad. When I meet f.ex Unholy DK much less so, because I haven’t played it myself since Legion.

Another lie, really…? Like, what game are you playing. In WoD we saw the Great Pruning and DR changes, in Legion some CC was given only certain specs (in rogues’ case Gouge), in more recent history we saw Echoing Resolve and Fastidious Resolve have serious impact, now we have 15% CC reduction and next patch we have an across the entire board CC adjustment. It’s very much being worked on continuously, and I fear it’s going too far because of the crying minority in people like yourself.

So it’s broken because it isn’t solely reliant on competing in the DPS race? What do you want out of the game exactly, shouldn’t you look forward to playing a whole bunch of different comps and styles? Which playstyles should be removed and why? What are you suggestions to fix rogue without it being homogenized? While we’re at it, which classes are fine? I see you’ve complained about pretty much each and every one. I think I might be able to pin down which one you play if I just…

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122

The bubble for me as a Rogue is to be able to fight against Paladin, warrior, hunters, ench-sha, druids and dk. Right now im dead if i encounter any of them one on one. And dead i mean as super dead. I cant get through their armor as a sub-rog and we have leather as armor. Last, lowering CC time is going to affect Rogues more than any class.

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The difference between us both is, that you play versus players that barely can handle the class, while I have to deal with players who are close to master it.

I even gave you the blue quote?

Pruning? They mostly pruned counter play and that is also the reason and the moment, when RMP became too broken. Sure, Rogue + Mage was always a strong comp for those who were able to master it, but the pruning made it a lot easier for RMX as they mostly pruned the enemies in their shutdown possibilities.

Terrible solutions that MOSTLY affected those comps with less cc that were very depending on interrupts.

The 15% flat were better, but they changes coming with 10.1 are even making it more worse for all that are not Mage, Lock and Rogue. Because while most classes only get values decreased, those 3 classes get some old values back and in case of Mage, they get an insane PvP talent that makes it even more worse than ever.

It’s the first time in 2 decades that they actually look into every cc separately and are trying to get something done, but like usual they did a bad job. They had the chance to equal out cc, but they wanted to keep the class fantasy while not combine it with damage, defense, offensive toolkit, etc.

Take rogue. They need to have less defense than most other classes. Why? Because they have so much control that is better than every defensive cd. So if they give them good defense on top of it, the class becomes automatically broken.

Minority? The only people that are not crying about rogues are people that play rogue or with a rogue mainly!!!

I guess I explained a couple of times already why rogue design is broken! It has too much control and offensive toolkit.

What ever, just another pitiful rogue defender.

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Oh so you are a grandiose narcissist. I had my suspicion, but this comment illustrates it very well.

Show me this data. I don’t believe it and I don’t trust you.

You atleast explained what your opinion on that matter is. The explanations were not very consistent or reasonable. You might think they are good, but you often use terminology wrongly, or illustrate misunderstandings of concepts.

125

I am afraid that this is a slippery slope. When rogue and paladin have bubble, what classes then need it to compete? Won’t we end up in a meta were all classes now also need a bubble to survive? I mean, we have already in 10.0.7 seen with the mass population of ret paladins what a meta looks like when the majority have bubble, and its horrendous.

A strategy could be to remove all bubbles from all classes, and then give such abilities to healers instead. Healers are already feeling like they are not important, giving them the only source of bubbles might help make people find them fun and relevant in pvp.

126

Exactly, and here we are, so back to what I’ve said previously… By the way, show us your main, post from it?

Get that? If this is your reason you’re also asking for a state of the game that will drive away the majority of PvP players. How are you gonna convince a new player that playing this game is fun, but kinda sucks now (and is gonna for a good while) but it will finally be worth it after having put in the 10,000th hour?

Now I want you to pinpoint what offensive toolkit and why it’s too much in its current state. What about Hunter and Mages? Are they broken in their design aswell? Tell us which classes are fine.

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127

Is your level 50 mage your main? :slight_smile:

I do, but do you get my reply to that? When 95% of the player base can’t handle a class correctly, we should make it easier. And making it easier usually results in less options, because less options equals lower skill cap.

That would actually result in something I want. A rogue with less options. Making a setup every 20 seconds on Rogue is obviously too hard, so make Kidney a 45 second for example, because making a setup every 45 seconds is a lot easier. :slight_smile:

I already did, but you aren’t capable of reading I guess. How about healing reduction effects? Or range slow on different targets? Or longer cast time for your enemies? Don’t they have an impact on the offensive strength of a class and should therefore be taking into account when balancing the damage?

128

Currently the weakest mortal strike effect out of melees that have one. 24% when stacked up, requires 5 stacks, dispellable. Monks have 25% without the need to stack it up and it isn’t dispellable. Arms, same thing. Havoc, Hubter (all specs), Demonology… same. I suppose Feral is relatively similar to Rogue on that field although it is only two stacks and not 5, on a rarer dispel.

This is not a Rogue thing, but an Assassination thing. Yet you moan all the same when Sub or Outlaw overperform Assa. And other specs have such a tool on a stronger version. Unholy and Frost. Better slow, not dispellable, can spam it more before being out of ressources than Assa can before being out of energy (because yes, Poisoned Knife isn’t exactly free).

Actually nerfed not into the ground, but even deeper 4 times in a row within a couple months.

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129

You’ve already used 3rd party sites to find some of mine. Yet you’re hiding your several Glads, show 'em! Come on, add some credibility to yourself.

See, now there’s something to actually discuss. This would result in homogenizing though, I don’t agree that every class should be that predictable and rogue would need to be close to as tanky as Outlaw in last SL season. Rogue is given these options because they aren’t tanky. So then my question would be, after 20 years, should armor not matter? Should we just be indifferent to seeing Plate, Leather, Mail but just take it as a melee? Or rather, how would you make up for it? Because if you mean that a 25 sec to Kidney should not be made up for, I can’t take you seriously. Now let us know what class you’re playing at least, so we can further the discussion and make comparisons.

Weren’t you talking about your opposition mastering the class? So that’s baseline, haha what the actual f** is this argument.

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Typical Rogue player Let the others do the work, I want the easy way! Feel free to do the same, its not that hard even for a classic alt.

You aren’t here to discuss, neither am I. You are here to get rogue back to its broken state. I am here to keep them where they are, maybe get them even a bit below in a balanced and good state. Same for mage, especially frost.

You were the one saying that we shouldn’t balance for the top 5% but for the bottom 95%. Your reasoning was that the bottom 95% aren’t as good. So basically spoken, that they can’t master the class.

So what is the best way to achieve both? Reducing the skill cap so its easier to master! But we don’t want a 0815 passive gameplay like DH, so we need to reduce their options as that will make sure, that good players can’t get more out of it than they should while bad players can get more out of it, not so much limited by their skill.

So in short: reduce options, increase cooldowns! But make it a bit more noob friendly. I already gave an example for that: Kidney 45 seconds cd and only 4 seconds duration but therefore without combo point cost for example.

That was the whole argument in short, sorry if that wasn’t explained easy enough for you before.

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Mate, you’ve skipped replying to most of my arguements aswell as starting this paragraph misunderstanding the meaning of what you’re responding to is while closing with this belittling comment haha it’s actually insane how you dodge these things like Floyd Mayweather. You seem to get nothing at all while continuing to argue for homogenized gameplay. So you want that?

And what would make up for it? Is rogue’s defensive capabilities good enough for no compensation? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY1F4SQNyRc

It’s not about me doing some You-type stalker thing to find you, it’s about you backing up your claims. You’re cowardly flaming peoples rating in discussions while you hide your alleged Glads.

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Sorry, but at some point my brain automatically starts to filter out nonsense. I am even surprised myself, that it still recognizes your name. :laughing:

It is, because rogues are meant to die easy. That have been part of wow before RMX became too broken. Either they won the game within 3 minutes or they went out of options and lost because the damage on them became too overwhelming.

With Shadowlands then we reached the mountain of absurdity by making RMP basically immortal! They had become the best setup but also the best dampener comp. There was no other comp as broken as RMP if played correctly.

So its the best thing to do to go back to the roots. Let them at least die if they weren’t able to get something done in a few setups!

Either that, or they need to change their design away from setups more into a dampener design. That is okay for me, but that means defense only in exchange for offensive cc!

I don’t care if you trust me or not. You can easily find my profile with 2 minutes of work. If you want to know it so badly, its up to you. And where do you actually backing up your claims? Based on what are you even allowed to talk about balancing if you need to backup your claims?