It is if the specc is lethal 1v1. Nobody fears the resto druid.
I agree when assa/outlaw get a damage buff. Currently, the damage is so low that ive seen MM hunters just not bother with kiting because they know they will win the dmg race. But most of these classes are strong in tournament play but neglected in the ladder. Sure I would love to make life a living hell for a destro lock or a BM hunter, but i see them so rarely. Everyone plays demo, mm, ret, arms and fistweaver in 10.0.7
No:
Hunters are very strong in 10.0.7. We are good at killing BM, but MM and surv eat us up. Especially good MMs can really make it a living hell for rogues.
demon hunters are designed to be rogue counters. If they get to break the rogue stealth, they should win, but both these classes have been quite swingy in balance compared to each other, so which one wins depends on the patch.
WW monks are strong vs rogue. Because fists of fury has the parry talent, they can play smart and ruin rogue rotation.
Mage has such a large skill area between skill floor and skill ceiling that the rogue vs mage is a fight of who is best. Ive seen some mages dominate my rogue so beautifully destructive I smiled while getting owned. The rogue has the proactive advantage here for sure.
My point here is that rogue is currently lacking damage. Because of this reason, most classes now will be able to bully the rogue in 1v1. We might be able to do the steal trick for flags, but we otherwise struggle to do meaningful work. Thus, rogues can no longer provide the assassination strategy of solo defenders in bgs unless the opponent is playing one of the significantly worse speccs or is undergeared.
I agree except for one part; that it is currently achieved. As of 10.0.7, outlaw/assa have too low dmg to have that versus the top 50% speccs given equal gear. But I completely agree that we should be weak to some classes and strong against others.
I have 2 lvl 70 rogues and 2 lvl 70 hunters all at max conquest gear (surv, surv, assa, outlaw) and in 10.0.7 because of the nerfed damage of the rogue (especially outlaw, but assa too), it is not like that. Perhaps in theory, but on my surv hunters I absolutely wreck face. The damage is not even comparable, my surv hunter burst absurd amounts while also maintaining a very high sustained dmg, one that rogues just cannot follow currently. And the comparison is one I agree with because survs are also much better now at 100-0 1v1 from stealth than a 10.0.7 rogue.
I agree. I think Rogues are rather fine in terms of design, the sole reason why there are weak-ish right now is that the meta is really hostile for them. Iâd slightly alter the way Assassination deals damage - too mucg passive DoT damage, too little direct damage for my personal taste so you donât have much impact on your own stuns - but overall, the class doesnât really need buffs, or very slight ones, especially Outlaw. What it really needs is for other specs to be brought down to earth.
Wrong, you are trying to support your opinion and take any source for it that might help you making people believe you, denying every other source that might come to another conclusion.
Rogue was broken for decades. Rogue not being great now doesnât change that fact! We even saw rogues competing in the in the AWC and tonight one won the tournament, even though he could have played other melees he also got r1 titles with.
But yeah, skilled capped said something you liked to hear, because this way you can blame the meta and not yourself. That is very scientific of course.
Are rogues still based around cheap shot, kidney shot, bleedings, poisons, blind, sap, evasion, cloak, vanish, step and so on? I guess it hasnât changed much in their broken class design!
It also seems like you guys donât get what I want to express. I LOVE IT to not see rogues every single 3s game or shuffle lobby. That is how it should be for the next decade to compensate us for the frustration that they had too much fun in the past decades! Even though it became a quite pink lately, that is still better than this urine yellow!
And no, I donât want them to be in the trash tier. I am perfectly fine with rogue in C tier! If they are currently in B tier, there is still more to nerf though!
The epic saga of Lillydot and his gaslighting continues. You might struggle with remembering anything past 2 posts ago, but we have already been here before, and countless people including me have already posted several sources of external proof that everything you are saying is nothing but your own personal agenda of destroying the class you hate.
Was, is not. The difference here is that whatever state any class has been previously is not an excuse for neglecting a class now. This is an absurd request to make. By that logic, all classes have been broken at any certain moment since 2004, and so we should nerf all classes! And no, rogue has not been broken for decades, they have had their ups and downs, just like all other classes.
And a lot of other sources too. And it is not that they are saying something I like, it is that external sources and countless people on this forum is saying the same thing, which goes against your subjective and heavily biased opinion. You are free to look through this forum for posts made by me. If you do so, you can see that there are plenty of times were I agree that I was wrong and openly admit to it, because external data is important. Here, let me find an example for you, so you can see how adults react when they are proven wrong:
But this time is not one of them. This time, plenty of external sources and people on this forum has shot your manipulation down with facts.
It might be that the game will balance itself if the top 1/3rd of speccs are brought down. And I would be willing to try this to see if it is enough. Since SkillCapped has mentioned that B tier is the baseline, then assa and sub dont need a buff as of 10.0.7 by the definition of SkillCapped, but outlaw does as it was C tier if I remember. So SkillCapped seems to agree with you here!
My personal opinion, but I might be completely wrong on my guess, is that I would make these changes beyond nerfing the strongest classes.
Outlaw: (1) Reduce RNG to make rotation smoother. (2) Increase base dmg, especially since 10.1 is reducing crit damage which outlaw dps relies on.
Assassination: (1) heavily reduce reliance on bleeds (this is feral druid playstyle, lets not overlap them, and also its stupid that dwarf counters both feral, assa and bleed arms with 1 racial) (2) increase reliance on poisons (3) Increase direct damage. (4)
Rogue in general: (1) Bring back target locked combo points to reduce multi target strategies (not class fantasy). (2) Remove Shadowrunner talent. Make stealthing slow again. Stealth is enough of a bonus, we dont need to move this fast in stealth. (3) Move shadow Dance and its sequence to Sublety tree and replace the Shadow Dance sequence in the Rogue tree with behind-the-enemy sequence that rewards rogues for standing behind their target by giving increased damage. Since I wrote above that all three speccs need Increased base dmg I would instead give them that damage bonus here so that they only gain it when standing behind their target. This would make counter play more interesting and would increase the needed skill level of rogues to get the maximum damage output.
Let me know what you think about these changes and why you might disagree with any of them
I too would love for classes to have more uniqueness to them again.
I would love if stances played a more significant role for warriors. Also glad stance.
I would love it if all Hunter abilities (including aimed shot) were castable on the move, survival was back to being ranged and pets had talent trees. In return, hunters would have deadzone again. You could give a melee hunter as a talent option similar to Glad Stance to BM hunters.
I would love it if druids spent more time shapeshifting with more defensive and offensive utility tied behind each form. To perform optimally, you would wsnt to swap forms often.
And so on.
But that game design wonât be coming back, unfortunately.
If i recall right cloak of shadow was added to the game a fix for vanish breaking with dots⌠and now itâs a complete 100% immunity that canât be dispelledâŚ
Iâm fine with it if we finally can dispel cloak =)
I rather not have this immunity to not make it dispelable.
My personal opinion is that this CoS buff hits wrong. Its improving something we are already good at without addressing the issues we currently have.
I personally think Deathmark (and Vendetta previously) is bad design in the current design of the game. Basically every class doesnât have an offensive that people can just remove. The fact as well that all our offensives affect bleeds, bleeds are most of our damage and exsanguinate had to go from 45s to 3m just seems like they are overall badly designed imo.
ironically when Assa is good, I also despise how broken NE is for Assa compared to every other race in the game.
AWC is clearly a terrible indiciator but Whaazz basically never used Deathmark as well when he played (think he used it like twice?)
But they include you? So youâve had your fun on this alleged 3 times Glad Rogue(show it to us), but new players should be punished for you having frustrated other players in the past? Rogue in AWC doesnât prove anything. Like I said in an earlier post, pro players like Whaaz, Shadenox and Pikaboo can make the class work even at a disadvantage. However, if an avg player needs a 2200mmr effort to win at 1600 something is wrong. This I say as an example. Thereâs solo shuffle without communication to consider aswell. Does the current iteration of an 1800 Subtlety in solo shuffle speak more about individual skill level than a past OP state rogue in a team setting with communication, like youâre flaunting? Who knows. Might not be as far away as youâd imagine.
Do we not allow certain classes to participate in that content? Anyway, if a 3500 player can cause hell with a certain class it doesnât mean the 95% of the rest should be punished. In a game like DOTA2 Invokerâs balanced around his basic kit. On top of that, if youâre a really good player and can use his whole kit, you can wreak absolute havoc. This gives you a reason to pick him for fun aswell as a reason to research and get better with him. Heâs not rendered useless because of potential at top 1% rating. People have found it fun trying to crack the code of certain comps aswell. You as this alleged Glad rogue you are should find that very easy and worry about other comps instead of spending large amounts of time weekly asking for an absolutely unsustainable state for rogues.
Youâve said this over and over. Weâve responded. Every other person on here, before you come spewing crap, is discussing how to evenly balance the classes without homogenizing the gameplay even further.
Not sure if you mean sustain, but Iâm fine with our out of Shadow Dance state, but Iâd like for it to chunk more in goes with Evis and Shadowstrike and being able to opt out of Sec Tech completely. I dislike relying on Rupture with Replicating Shadows for sustain, especially since we canât brawl but have to unless spending the combo points from our burst window. I donât like Shadowed Finishers, it could rather be reworked to a flat Evis buff or Evis dealing 100% Shadow but no additional damage. I donât know what the number would have to be. I want the current state of Sec Tech as an option just because I want options. Iâve been advocating for the return of talent trees for years only to find myself with less options on many classes. But all in all, I agree with Cazzetteâs post in my Sub Rogue thread.
Completely agree, I dislike that I see 20k Garrote crits compared to 7.5k Mutilates. I donât feel much impact from the rotation itself, the reponse is mostly delayed in dots. Some rearrangement of the damage would be great. I saw Atahalni mention in the Stealth discussion open up with bleeds and run pillar, which I donât think is always that free, but anyhow, it would make that much less impactful. Also here I would advocate more options in the talent tree. Like in Shadowlands we had Sepsis for more cheese plays and Bone Spike for sustain.
This I donât think would work anymore with the changes coming in 10.1. Sapâs already getting 2 sec nerf aswell as being uniquely on opener in that you canât Blind > Sap anymore. So with a nerf to speed, I think this could potentially make Sap a rare sight.
I think the problem with sub is that in DF they have always been at either subpar dmg or capable of reaching crazy burst windows by stacking. I want to heavily reduce the stacking for crazy burst windows such that the core mechanics of the class are more solid.
While I understand why some people ask for this, I donât think this is any good. The game is way too fast, and every single class is way too mobile for this to work. When CPs were target locked people didnât die in 3s to one person with 1min CDs, and people didnât have 17 teleports alongside 32 dashes so it wasnât horrible to primarily go for one target. Right now people can dance around you so easily that youâd be useless, because hitting their friend when they go away would reset your CPs so people would just hit Rogue for 3 globals, mess around while the teammate stays in, and the Rogue could only get absolutely destroyed without hitting back by the teammate (imagine warrior/ret), pr reset CPs.
The âbehind the targetâ this is cool, as it used to be one of the prime mechanic of Sub when it wasnât a braindead spec. I wonder how it would fit in the game right now as, same problem, people are overly mobile, but it could maybe be nice. But then other classes also need to get a bit more depth that obly allows them to do max damage while using their brains, otherwise it would only widen the gap between Rogue and, say, RET.
Hehe please no.
Cloak was always the same as it is now, only it had lower cooldown for the longest time and was only increased to 2min with a recent expansion.
Yes, I donât quite like Deathmark. To me it would be part of the things that should change if we made Assa deal less DoT damage and more direct damage. Give Vendetta back ! Or give a similar CD that increase other stuff than DoTs.
Yes. When facing Preservation it is a better play to not use it at all, because if you do he gets to dispel it so you lose more damage than if you didnât use it, but then he also gets to use his bleed dispel 1min later on cooldown (as itâll still be ready for the next DM then) and that really hurts your overall pressure. Meanwhile if you donât press it, he never dispels. Amazing design right. I wish we could dispel wings hm.
Rogues are not S tier for the first time in 18 years and they loose their minds. welcome to the gutter where the rest of us plebs have been living the last decade.
if it were for me they can make rogue unplayable. i woulndt shed a single tear if i will never see a rogue again in my life
That might be your perspective, but ever thought about that some people might think you and all the other pitiful rogue defender are spewing the crap here?
It does prove that the class can compete on the top level. Isnât that enough? If you canât handle your class, is that really a topic to discuss or should you just pick another class then? Isnât balance meant that classes are around the same on ALL skill levels?
I mean, the class changes I think about would barely affect the 95% you are talking about, as they canât get the maximum out of the class anyways, so what is the issue?
I do that too, but you just donât get it. I am saying that rogue is broken because its class design is broken. As long as they donât fix it, the class canât be balanced.
The devs think its fine to just balance classes around damage, tank and defensives but they leave cc, offensive tools like healing reduction and comp balance alone, which are as important!
That is what they need to change or better to extend! CC and offensive tools have to be constantly put to the test and they have to start working on the comp balance too, not specifically on the class strength.
Your one guy who thinks its ok to gaslight and manipulate everyone on the forum to agree with you subjective narcissistic opinion about the rogue. People are defending reality.
You are one person. We are literally now a large group of people defending the rogue class, while you sit as a solo person shouting your subjective agendas out. Its getting pathetic now, but I guess we are the joke here, because we keep giving you your narcissistic supply.
No. Stop calling it balance that you want to reduce the class you hate to dust. We get it, you donât like rogues, but please stop this charade. Itâs getting tiresome to have to deal with a reality-bending narcissist while we try and debate how to balance the classes we play.
Reread everything Shadenox amongst many others have written about the rogue class. People regularly call out when they think a change would be too strong, and we are also regularly discussing nerfs that could be meaningful. We are having an interesting debate, and you keep jumping in telling us you think our class is best left in the gutter. It has no value and it is incredibly embarrassing behavior.
