The Arthas novel Christie Golden wrote years ago was amazing. It is definitely my favorite Warcraft novel of all time. I really liked the way she fleshed out the character and added depth to areas that otherwise didn’t have much depth – like the small story about Invincible.
I hope the Sylvanas novel will be similar. Telling the character’s story from start to finish and giving her the Arthas treatment would be sweet, I think.
Christie Golden is better at writing stories that revolve around characters as opposed to events. So this kind of story should be her forte, so to speak.
And I’ll definitely get the audio book as well. I loved the Before the Storm audio version that had Josh Keaton (Anduin) narrate it. It added a certain je ne sais quoi to the experience.
Listening to Patty Mattson – who is Sylvanas – narrate the novel about Sylvanas is obviously extra icing on the cake. And who wouldn’t want that?
Is it ? Personally I had the opposite feeling reading the summary, especially the last few lines : “But as her moment of victory draws near, Sylvanas Windrunner will make a choice that may ultimately come to define her. A choice that’s hers alone to make.”
I find it tempting to identify her future raid as “her moment of victory drawing near”. And “a choice that may ultimately come to define her” sounds to me as “a choice that will negate her recent image” - this sentence wouldn’t make much sense, if this choice was to stick her to how she’s currently defined, imho.
Also, unrelated but Patty Mattson is reason enough to buy the whole thing. What an immense voice actress
As I said earlier, this reeks of a Wc3 Grom/Darth Vader demise.
She’ll be forced to choose between saving herself and fulfilling the goal she had, or to sacrifice it all for the sake of others.
This narrative angle was already hinted at with the introduction of Legion. It seems that now that those that wanted her as utterly villainous are gone, they are fishing it up again in order to salvage whatever good they can of the character, and reach a middle ground of sorts between fans and haters.
Well, you could have written the same about Garrosh in Warcrimes, which gave him every opportunity to go for the redemption arc. But his decision was to spit on it. It wouldn’t be a choice if there was no possibility to say no.
Mmh. So her choice would be, keep it villain or reach redemption through death ? Idk. That makes sense but would her dying be that meaningful at this point ? She already died thrice, and one of those “deaths” was voluntary. A sacrifice only makes sense for its peak drama
Meaningful for what and to whom? I don’t think her story has any lesson to teach me, whatever they’ll do with her. But I’d certainly find some grim satisfaction in seeing her dead, the more unceremonious the better. The most satisfactory ending of this story for me would be the admission that the story was a mistake that should just be ended. It would have a positive impact on me, personally. I can’t think of an end to her that would feel more meaningful to me.
But if you want to talk messaging… is redeeming someone who wilfully commited genocide for “the greater good” meaningful in any positive sense? I mean, they could certainly go for “no one is ever totally beyond redemption”, but killing her off, and maybe even sending her to the Revendreth-purgatory for the promise of atonement over time, might be the best way to send that message. And that could work even if she was unrepentant in death, though it would more likely to follow a heroic death.
Or do you see any more meaningful message they could want to send here, or a better way to send that message? Do you think having her get away with trying to conquer the world with the forces of death because she is sorry would be a better end? Would you rather see her exalted for being a bad person? Would you like her punished by forcing her into some godly position that promises only eternal serfdom to some purpose outside of her? What message that could be sent here would be meaningful to you?
It can be narratively meaningful on an emotional level (Darth Vader), on a symbolic/heroic one (Grom), or with actual relevance to the story outcome (saving Anduin, stopping Zovaal, etc.)
There are plenty ways in which it can be framed as meaningful. Be it for players, for the story, or both.
It may just be meaningful for her character arch.
As in sacrificing herself in order to give the Forsaken a future. Or choosing to wear a reforged Lich King crown to stop the Scourge.
Or a number of other ways.
It’s not about the message her fate will send. When I said “meaningful” I was refering to the value of the sacrifice Zarao was talking about. The value of a sacrifice relies on the worth of what is being sacrificed, right ? Given that Sylvanas has experienced death several times over, and given that she arguably doesn’t hold on to life that much, having her sacrificing herself would be a pretty poor narrative climax for her character, I think.
And it certainly wouldn’t be enough to atone for what she’s done anyway, if that’s the goal they are pursuing by killing he. It worked for Grommash, whose image was rehabilitaded within the Horde. Would it work for her ?
Now I might be saying that because it’s true I wish she stays alive and gets reintegrated into the story on a completely different writing basis.
(By the way no messages sent at all is also fine by me. I mean there are countless terrible decisions in WoW lore that have never been atoned for)
Completely unbiased: Sylvanas was always bad. BfA definitely made her worse, but she did worse things than some Raid bosses even before she became Warchief.
-Experimenting on people
-Imprisoning and Torturing Allied Officers of the ebon Blade (Koltira)
-Raising new undead in Silverpine etc.
-Creating WMDs
-Attacking the Kirin’tor
And I’ll rerpeat my question: What could be done that you would feel would actually be meaningful? I don’t think there is anything worthwhile that can be done, that’s why I am asking. That her death would be meaningless isn’t much of a criticism, if there is no option that is any better.
Well, keeping her alive might actually offer more options, something a la Illidan, I don’t know really.
That being said, we’re all discussing things in a “villain til the very VS redemption” perspective, but it’s still possible that writers come out with some bIG rEveaL stuff that would shed some light on the incoherences of her recent development people are always pointing out at
Neither does WoW have a history of that, nor is it very likely that with such a great community no one among the fans could come up with the same idea. So as long as no one can sell me on an idea that could actually be cool, I tend to believe there is none. We’re not dealing with writing geniuses, and even if we were, we have months and years to figure out their ideas, before they can ever come to fruition, and a good twist is something that has to make sense in hindsight.
If there is an unforeseen twist, it’s more likely than not just another hard retcon. And while there is certainly precedent for that, I couldn’t think of one that clearly made the story better.
Several heroes have done worse things than some Raid bosses.
Of the list you mention, we have several characters that did equivalent stuff and are still praised as heroes or considered such.
It all depended on the framing of each action.
Take for example:
Here you have, the good guys:
How kind… how generous our lord-commander is. Where he is flowers and sunshine, I am filled only with hatred.
It is not enough to end their miserable lives… I want them humiliated… debased!
What could be more unspeakable than to be turned into that which you hate? To dedicate your existence to eradicating a thing, and then in the end to become it?
How sad.
Take this tincture northwest to Onslaught Harbor. Apply it to their still corpses and watch what happens, but avoid the cathedral.
Or:
Ah, $p, just the I was looking for. I have received another batch of tactical mana bombs that I need planted in key positions across Dawnseeker Promontory to the northwest.
Here, take these. It is time to give the Sunreavers a taste of their own medicine.
Plant one on the Sunreaver ships, another one on their scrying crystals, and the last on the bridge that connects to their forward base.
Even if Sylvanas was always a tad shadier than the rest of the Horde, up until BfA she counted with enough backing in the form of motives that could’ve framed her actions under tropes such as “fighting fire with fire”, or doing questionable stuff for the greater good.
If you want to tag the above as inherently bad, you are going against the very core of the class you are posting with. Same with Warlocks, or DHs, or even Rogues.
Let alone, the fact that the above aren’t the only ones that follow on said mindset.
Remember the time the SI:7 ordered the destruction of a civilian goblin ship as collateral damage? Or the time the Dark Iron unleashed Molten Giants against the civilian district of Zuldazar’s market?
Or the time Jaina ethnically cleansed an entire city?
Framing is everything when considering a character.
And even those that are portrayed as shadier than the rest, have enough of a balance that differentiates them from raid bosses.
EDIT: Also, the criteria used to tag anyone as “killable raiding material” follows a rather subjective take in the game.
We’ve sided with Pirates to kill other pirates. Killed trolls either because they were in our way while fighting some other foe (Drakkari), because we wanted their riches (Farraki), or simply because they dared stand for what they though was theirs (Amani).
We’ve destroyed, killed, or robbed, any race that stood in our factions way. With the game itself facilitating NPCs as “Bosses” to defeat.
In all, there is really no point in using “Raiding material” as the perfect standard.
Every deed is mirrored by someone, but Sylvanas still stands out by combining all of them in one person.
One guy tortures, one experiments on people, one uses bombs (the tactical Manabombs are not really WMDs), one does another shady thing… Sylvanas does all of it, and thats special.
We can point at her “worst” up until BfA, and still come about as bad as most of the Ebon Blade warring. Or the Illidari and the Dark Harvest.
Don’t all three use all/most of these tactics?
Only difference being, that they do so against those they consider their enemies.
Torture? Check.
Experimenting? Check.
Raising dead? Check.
Creating WMDs? Check.
Attacking some third neutral party? Check.
Yes, she does stand out that much. Because of her position in the story-telling. But I do understand your point. From an in-world perspective she shouldn’t stand out that much, since her methods (though not necessarily her success with them) aren’t really uncommon, or even universally condemned. And I generally agree with Zarao that the game’s story would be so much more immersive, if the devs actually understood and respected that.
But they don’t. And that is why the story of WoW doesn’t match its world-building. And that’s why our obervations on other stories in the world of Warcraft aren’t as relevant as we would like to think. Southshore for example was a horrible example of the cruelty of war in general, and the Forsaken blight in particular. But it never played any role in the main plot at all, so it isn’t much of an argument for anything. The burning of Teldrassil on the other hand wasn’t created as some event in the world, it was created as a cruel tragedy, presented to us in Warbringers, a very dramatic unwinnable quest, two novellas and the first Saurfang-cinematic. It has been referenced as something unforgiveably cruel ever since, and it still fuels one of the biggest arcs we took out of BfA, playing a grand role in the Night Fae content. Teldrassil is not just an event, it is a pivotal part of a story. Even if Sylvanas had done nothing else, this alone cast her as a villain, whose evil cannot be ignored and has to be adressed.
Bringing up stuff outside of this storyline won’t help one bit. Indeed, as we saw in Before the Storm for example, they are quite happy to retcon everything to fit their new narrative anyways, and suddenly Sylvanas’ Undercity was an anti-past police state. Or when the graping of Alexstraza was suddenly a crime that Garrosh could be tried for. If it is part of the story it is relevant, no matter how ridiculous it should be, if it happened in another storyline it will most likely be ignored or rewritten.
Thanks for putting this into words. At the end of the day, we as players/people losing themselves into the lore have close to zero reappropriation power over it. We can only accept it as it is presented to us -there is no place for personal interpretation and appreciation if the right ones, the ones we’re supposed to have, are exposed to us in such crystal-clear manner. I wish they left some things shadier smh, and weren’t so keen on delivering us “the true Warcraft experience”
Same with more factual lore stuff. Jeez maybe we shouldn’t know everything about the accurate cosmic realities behind what is death, what is Light, what is Void, how life appeared in the Great Dark Beyond… that empties Warcraft religions and magical forces of all their mystery and poetic value, imho
