New Year, More Love?

I or should say we have no idea what you said there…

Angry doomerposting, being tired of having the same boring trashy design for 8+ years now, just look at how intricate frost mage mastery is compared to Frost Dk mastery.
it is laughable how little they care about DK.

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Holy Paladin - Light Bringer causes the healing you do to be increased the closer they are to you. The actual increase depends on the amount of Mastery you have.

So every minute you get a burst window and each rune gives a 2%…
You got a ability that has a 60% chance to increase the damage of another abilitie by 300% aditional damage…

You got alot of stuff that buffs your damage…

you are arguing in bad faith, as i know you do not play DK. do come back after you play it for an expansion or a few patches. you want pillar of frost with its asinine 2% strenght scaling? sure, give me avenging wrath instead and ill enjoy seeing you trying to make the things you palas do with the extreme clunk that is the pillar of frost obliteration window.

the entire premise of howling blast ever since cataclysm, yes you heard me, cataclysm, is to be an extremely weak ranged ability that does -okay- damage once the oh so super powerful 300% proc happens, by trying to argue that the rime proc we get to boost howling blast is actual danger to people and actually does damage is ASININE at best.

It was nearly good when season 2 tier set made it do more damage but outside of that you often skip a rime proc 300% holwing blast damage in favor of doing another obliterate. But i wont lay it on a paladin that has MULTIPLE NEAR COMPLETE REWORKS NOW SINCE LEGION, you actually has someone with voice, gravitas, and ability to make good emotional videos that show why paladin struggled with things. DK is the same, but we have nothing, you felt bad for a patch or three, that bad feeling you had has been our life since the end of legion and start of BFA.

EVERY SINGLE CLASS IN THIS GAME has synergies and scaling going on under the hood, sub rogue, rogue in general. warlock, mages, mastery and even entire passives that could be their own mastery mechanics.


“increase shadow damage done”
“increase frost damage done”
“death strike gives you PHYSICAL absorb shield and attack power” (not even a magical absorb)

Compare that to other tanks masteries or for example frost mage mastery, do you even know how intricate and thoguht over they are?

THEY HAVE EVEN NERFED OUR COMPLETELY BLAND MASTERIES TO ONLY APPLY TO THE SHADOW AND FROST DAMAGE OF THE CLASS…as back in legion you could use trinkets that did shadow or frost damage to do hilarious things, that was illegal for DK to have.

i have only scraped the surface of what is wrong with DK, and that is EVERYTHING, so Shut up, sit down, and enjoy your paladin, as it has atleast a way to get it’s grievances heard via savix and the mcconnel mafia. OUR DK VOICE FLAVOR HAS ALSO BEEN BUGGED FOR HALF A YEAR NOW, AND BLIZZ DOES NOT CARE OR EVEN KNOW.

Which is an awesome fantasy, plays right into the idea of a front line battle healer. Generally works quite well too, I know there are limitations of course, like when boss mechanics make half your group be real far away etc… Paladin is way more fun than ever right now. All 3 specs are performing at a good level, and are generally fun to play. You’ve got unique utility and on top of that you were given CR.

Go play death knight for some time, see how it makes you feel. Compare frost to ret. Blood and prot.

DKs are old. The last major change we have had was when they simplified the rune system. Everything else has been them tinkering with auras, and adjusting a % here and a % there with minimal difference. We just want an overhaul man, just like paladin and rogue had. That’s it.

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What makes you think I have never played a DK before??..

Anit Magic Shell, Anti Magic Barrier and Anit Magic zone, Assimilation, Spell Warden… So I dont know what DK your playing…

Please finish the work on this half-baked ret rework

Issues with ret paladin (pve)

Want me to go on??.. I will say this then im done, DK aint the only class out there that needs reworking and help… I play my class through thick and thin… Use to play hunter in 2007 I had my Paladin since 2010 and I accept Ret has issues… But I enjoy what I play and use my class flaws and become a better player… I have seen DK perform realy well, in rated bgs they been first in damage done… I knew someone that had a DK and complained about they had too many abilities etc… Back in Shadowlands us Paladins had 38 abilities, tough to play… Either enjoy the DK, re-roll, or quit… Simple as… But dont start throwing insults at people who are trying to help, your doing your class and self no favours… Because the more I try and help, the more insults are thrown and the more I hate the spec…

Ehm… hi, not sure why i was tagged into a DK post. Why are you linking Pala topics here?

Hey sorry -

Proving a point :smiley: :v:

Ah, read more about what was talked about, grass is always greener eh?

in which expansion, and you better not say random BG’s full of chaos

you starting your reply to me in a passive aggressive tone trying to sell me the asinine point that the 300% rime proc and Pillar of frosts 2% strenght scaling (that used to be duration increase, instead of strenght scaling) is something we should be happy about?

Look here, i get that every class has issues, but the point here that is unassailable is that we have no eyes on us, nothing, if we underperform due to spreadsheet and damage meter inconscistenies… cold dead data that is… we get an aura buff, and our increasingly rustier mechanics stay rusty and clunky.

AMS I will give you is better in Dragonflight, it used to be worse, i have no clue what the “anti magic barrier” is that you speak of–…or now that i actually check the names do you mean the actual passive talents that we use to increase the effectiveness of AMS and AMZ?!, my friend in gaming and christ that’s hardly anything noteworthy, AMZ has been largely nerfed aswell from its earler incarnation in raids, and you do know what spell warden is right? its a rune enchant… that takes up the slot on your weapon…or offhand, slots that need to have fallen crusader and razorice if you are dual wielding.

i think you merely just looked at the talents and abilities and slapped them in text to help your case, while having no understanding about what they are, what they do, and what they actually are used in. the triple dot dot dot at the end to add further passive aggresive weight to the previous claims. Why are you in the DK forum to begin with? if you play paladin through thick and thin?

GRANTED, my beef is not with paladins, its merely the message that blizzard puts out, some classes gets MID PATCH Talent reworks, rogue, mage etc etc, maybe even paladin i dont know about that one, and they have the capacity to work hard for the classes they care about, it took them a while to get shadow priest reworked into a good state, and they will with you. but i am sorry i cannot have understanding for someone that currently has attention and through on them by devs and designers, telling me that has played this class since wrath to stay silent? NO…no no no.

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Ill just tel you that they gave the illusion of a rework to rets atleast. We used to have only Holy dmg, well we still do but now we have 3 types of them instead of one.

What did this achieve you ask? Well now they can split talents into those 3 types so “increas holy dmg by X” no longer increases everything, thats it. So instead of having 7+ talents that effect consecration like we did at launch, we have 7+ talents split into holy dmg types.

This was not out of care for the class or spec, they didnt have time to fix the new talent tree system for all the classes with DF launch so they did 2 patchworks of a semi functioning spec, called one of them a “rework”, overshot a lot with dmg and selfhealing by a mile and nerft it all back to what it was pre rework.

We were very strong for a month and thats what ppl still remember about our rework.

i have no idea on the current state of paladins, only that they have changed atleast 2 times since legion, significantly. i know of anti synergy because it is quite prevalent in DK design now, we have a dead talent called frostscythe that is supposed to be the AoE choice to obliterate, it was introduced in legion, and it has barely been worth taking even then, now with the blizzard bright idea to have obliterate cleave targets if you stand in your death and decay it has made it a dead talent and choice, ontop of bringing a DK spell that does NOTHING for frost DK except having to do clunky ground target while you move about dodging everything and the fight is always moving, it also has no scaling with our stupid mastery since it’s shadow damage, and does a laughable 10k damage over ten seconds at fyrakk LFR ILVL (or it’s 5k i dont remember, its extremely low regardless, for unholy toon, and they have mastery to boost it)

then we have the thing that so many other classes malded about in shadowlands, abominations limb is a capstone talent in the unversal DK tree, and for frost it’s…weak at best, it does not do shadowfrost damage, only shadow, so it does not scale with our stupid mastery, unholy does of course, but funnily enough Blood has the biggest damage with it, which i find funny, we have no intricacy, no “bonus mastery/mechanics” baked in with passives like mage, rogue, warlock, or the others, we have extremely old strenght scaling mechanics in a clunky system that is especially annoying to play in some encounters and PvP.

The entire idea that our obliterate could do frost damage when we got our killing machine procs is something they introduced recently in shadowlands, and without it i dare say that DK would have been due for a full rework, because it did alleviate things slightly.

I feel like im raging and screaming and trying to explain how it is like to live in the desert to people that have never set a foot in it… or maybe seen the edges, thats the maddening part. people say that their class is always the worst, and it feels so baaaaad. warlocks have complained about demonology, let them reroll unholy and feel how it can be to truly play a pet class that will make you weep of the work you have to do while Bm hunters and the now finalized Demo rework presses two buttons while unholy has to press 12, for LESSER EFFECT. the only thing unholy has is insane scaling in Aoe situations. and being the go to PvP spec because you cannot take any damage that is from melees, and casters you can sort of bully for a short while.

it feels like standing outside in the cold rain, looking inside to a feast of people, seeing entitled kids whine about not getting the extra fat goose liver, and getting rewarded for it, even if it took a few minutes, and sometimes someone walks up to the window and knocks on it looking all annoyed being “we’re suffering, not you”

Frostscythe should be changed to be an execute on a 15-30 second cd
just make it so you press it big damage then you get a buff that makes your Frost Strike and Obliterate now deal more damage based on your critical strike %.

as for Glacial Advance change this so after you have consumed 5-15 stacks of Rime Howling Blast procs morph Howling Blast in to Glacial Advance blasting all enemies in front of you for massive damage also granting 5 stacks of Razorice debuff at the target.

Also i would love to have a end row talent that replaces Raise Dead Ghoul for a summon Lich, you open a Deathgate from Ebon Hold were a powerfull Lich emerges out from the Deathgate.

This should work like the Elemental Shamans Storm Elemental a powerfull temporary minion that do a few things whit during it’s duration,

it should buff DK whit Frost Armor increasing the Frost DK’s armor and enemy that attacks the DK has their haste reduced by 1% stacking up to 5-10 stacks

it also cast Frost Bolts at the enemy slowing them for 50% this also buffs the DK’s next Rime proc Howling Blast by x amount of damage.

Next is Frost Bomb a 1 use cd it cast when you summen the Lich this deals a smal portion of damage but if the primary target dies it causes another explosion around the dead target of the debuff dealing massive damage if the target gets killed.

last skill Shadowfrost fissure the Lich will drop tiny puddle under the unsuspecting target if this goes of under the enemy target it deals a massive amount of damage also leaving a debuff on them increasing the damage they take by 1% stacking up to 5 shadowfrost Fissure has a 5-10 second CD

I am a little confused, i just read upon ret talents and the radiant and holystrike effects do all scale of your physical damage and holy damage increases, and picks the one that does the most damage, but nothing is wasted, mind you i read this of a few posts from other people, and they seemed pretty knowledgeable. Example being if target has high armor, holystrike deals holy damage. i use anti magic shell, it does physical completely bypassing it (yay, im so happy for that detail)

it also scales of the mastery, compared to DK abilites that deal shadow damage frost mastery does nothing to them.

i had little idea how paladin talents worked since i tried it out briefly in legion, but i will say a first glance of abilities and talents makes me annoyed if yo are complaining about the non issue of having multiple spell schools that does not scale. thats what Death knights have, although not in a big scale, but it IS there.

of course i do not know how paladins play in content, but i am telling you this, that it is taking all of my willpower to not burst out in anger again after seeing people come to my forum and tell me that i should not complain because i have the ever powerful rime proc and 2% strenght scaling on pillar when the avenging wrath talent crusade does the same BUT for haste AND strenght AND lasts for 36 seconds with 2 min cooldown AND does it for 3% to boot. Or a 28 second regular avenging wrath with 1 min cooldown. What the prevoious poster that summoned you here do not realize is how obliteration works, how pillar of frost works.

one minute base cooldown, that can be reduced by 1 sec every time your frost strike or obliterate crits, so uptime is a little more generous, BUT it lasts for 12 seconds (usedto be 10, but each rune spent increased duration instead of 2% strenght). we can also cause a lingering effect that gives us 20% strenght after pillar fades for…8 seconds i think? increased by every crit you did in pillar window.

the issue is that if you cannot “invest” in pillar, pillar is sub par and will ruin your damage, in PvE and PvP. you pop it. now you MUST stick to the target, and god forbid if you have low haste because then–i have not even explained how obliteration works yet, apologies. obliteration works like this: you use pillar of frost, each frost strike or howling blast cast(the howling blast needs to be empowered by rime, rime procs come of obliterate uses) will now grant a killing machine proc, killing machine procs makes our obliterates frost damage and auto crit, the gameplay is that you must stick to the target, not get cced, knockback or target moves away PvP and PvE, and if you could not “invest” in pillar of frost like that the after effects will not be good either. half of the global cooldown you do in pillar window is used to enable killing machine, that actually does the things we want.

given how i see how avenging wrath:crusade works…imagine if you had a 12 second window to stack that effect to 10 stacks AND you could only gain stacks if templars verdict critted, no other ability would build stacks AND to get templars to crit, you must use crusader strike to proc that free crit, two globals, im Melee, inside a very tight window, with low haste or lag perhaps.

i am fully aware that avenging wrath:crusade is mostly melee range to build it’s stacks, but two templars verdicts and you are at 6 stacks already, with… 5 seconds passed? of the insane 36 second duration. Granted, its still building stacks, but it is miles away from the convoluted garbage we have to do with pillar of frost.

…and here i am ranting again at someone new, apologies. I am just so tired of it all, especially after having done a few deep dives into most of the other classes talent treest and passives.

I was going to tag the one that brought you here, but i decided against it, if they see this they see this.


No, the idea what most thought it would do is what you describe but in practice its the opposite. If a target has AMS its treated like magic dmg and is absorbed, if the target has BoP its treated like physical and target is immune. The only thing it bypasses is armor.

Yes it scales with mastery but the only attack that isent magical from the start is Crusader Strike, everything else already does Holy dmg (pre rework Blade of Justice was physical aswell). So its worse then just holy dmg. Radiant dmg is a nothing burger, its holy/fire magic aka just magic.

Let me ask you this, whats the point of an attack that bypasses physical/magical immunity/absorb in a PvE setting? Is there any encounter today or even in the past this would even be remotly usefull on? They wont make encounters where something this neiche would be usefull nor would they balance a class tree rotation for PvP other then adding a debuff or maybe a dispell protection.

And as for pvp we lack sooooo many things

  • Instant gapcloser
  • Propper slow
  • Root
  • Debuff
  • Dispell protection
  • Selfhealing that doesnt lower dmg output by nearly 80% and isent nerfed by 50% in a pvp setting while also costing a large portion of mana. Whats the point of holy power if it costs mana aswell?

All of the above can be presumed to be at the cost of having bubble but that kinda flies out the window as an excuse when there are classes that has a counter for it. The cost is becoming far to heavy expansion after expansion of not getting anything that should count as a basic tool that most other melees has while they pump out new classes left and right that has nearly all of the above day one (DKs included). And not counting DKs all of the other new classes are extreamly mobile.

So instead of giving us basic tools that everyone else has this is what they spent time on, splitting holy dmg into sub categories and i bet you the “hero talents” in TWW will expand on just that! Holy strike for Ret/Prot and Radiant for Ret/Holy.

And this is whats driving me insane, the ONLY change is on our dmg. There is no gameplay change, ever!

What do Rets do in combat? Run to target and hit it! Its very blunt, simple, predictable and most of all vissualy telling and counterable!

It mostly depends on the targets skill to avoid the paladin, dispell that freedom, deff CDs/CC when wings are up, if possible dispell the bubble, otherwise “deep breath”

  • stealth/cloak/evi/iceblock/invisible/AMS/Monk bubble/priest bubble/leap/fly away etc etc.

Then pushbacks aswell, most other melee have a counter for that like shadowstep, leap, charge, rush, DG etc and most of them works even when pushed over a cliff.

Its never fun to look on how a Ret playes, its never impressive. What can most of them even show, big hits? When i used to look in pvp vids way back mages looked extreamly skillfull when they played well while every single Ret vid was mainly just a show of big hits and the use of Engi boosts and granades, so an engineer that happened to be ret.

Havent looked at those kinds of vids for well over a decade but have a vague feeling nothing has changed.

For me, your issues are a non issues. They are just about scaling? DPS window? Clunky rotation? Ive had all of those before as ret (please do try a ret in Cata when it comes) and some of them pressists today. My main issues with Ret is its very stagnant state, nothing new is actually added to the spec. The only thing they have done for Ret since WotlK is adding a functioning rotation that they change up every once in a while, everything else we have has been there since vanilla (well rebuke was added in cata) while losing tools like cleanse magic/emancipate/blessings etc.

Then that is a blatant bug or stupid feature if you ask me, and should not work like that, ill give you that.

if you think that paladin’s have the issue of one attack not getting mastery scaling then you are mistaken, DK damage is very underwhelming outside of pillar burst window thanks to our obliterate being pure physical and normal killing machine procs works on getting auto attack crits, to THEN enable a frost damage obliterate.

Neither do DK’s, we have some speed increased combined with out strong slows that is true.

if they removed hand of hindrance thats sad, ill give you that.

for consideration, Should paladins have a root?

what do you mean by this?

purge/dispel magic has always been a menace, that is true.

let me tell you of the tale of death strike, DK’s primary form of self healing, after the start of BFA shattered our class the only thing that stood firm was death strike, it then got progressively nerfed in PvP situations into laughuable levels, and especially during the end of BFA’s insane corruption patch where you could stack ridicoulous amounts of versa, Death strike has never been restored to a normal state in PvP since then.

nearly all of our kit and damage in PvP on frost is severely reduced aswell, insane numbers like 50% anbd 80% on several abilities, all from legion. still in effect.

The increasing ability for a few classes to break DS is annoying, that i can understand, the same way how warlocks can completely say “no” to a frost DK’s burst window by casting amplified curse of weakness to make the DK unable to crit for 12 seconds, 12 seconds being the exact time of our burst window.

DO NOT lump in death knight with the ample display if other classes that clearly is more loved and better designed.

Seems we are both in hell, your “rework” made things worse, and we have not had anything for 8 years, funny how that works.

I can replace the word “ret” here with Frost DK, and it would be exactly the same, but i WILL NOT cede my point that you have it better with avenging wrath burst window, even if you may never be able to understand because playing a Frost DK long enough to see how it works will not happen, i dont blame you for that.

i will say the same again, we have the same problem, within our burst window that is, even if we have spammable slows and ways to somewhat move, i will explain why. You pop pillar, then you need to spend a GCD on frost strike to ENABLE killing machine, target has now Cced you, vanished, leapt away, slowed you, or just counterbursts you because doing anything else with your globals in our extremely short burst window makes it very weak, not that death striking will actually work nowadays anyway.

i dont know why you are complaining against defensice spells that are designed to soak damage, you want to dispell those you need a shaman to purge them.

If we remember to push deaths advance we can avoid knockoffs and knockbackls, i will give you that.

i can see why the PvP might be worse now after the botched rework, but dont tell me savix talents are unskilled or unimpressive, and mages being OP is always the case in that manner

my respect for you has now dropped to the level of the person that summoned you here, you know NOTHING of DK over the years, same way that i will be honest and say that i dont know much of paladin after BC up to start of legion where i played it briefly, then stopped mid legion, i know what we have lost since Wrath, i know of the asinine botched transition form Legion into BFA that made us pathetic and boring to play, not to mention weak in many aspects. i wonder if me trying to explain just how the pillar of frost obliteration window works is a wasted effort, or how stupid it is to have a dead talent called frostscythe that got completely overlooked by the stupid ARDENWEALD covenant ability in SL that makes obliterate cleave if you and the mobs stand in it, that it was made baseline shows extreme out of touch by designers, period, but you wont ever understand why or what impact it had, it’s mere existance causes alot of our other AOE damage to be ruined to make up for the insane damage it can do, toxic design in a nutshell, everything you feel about pala we feel about DK, as i believe both of our classes are in similar spots, yet i am willing to bet money that they will finish your class, like they did shadow priests, and We will get nothing save for idiotic hero talents.

i WANT to be proven wrong, but The War Within will show it.

Ok you clearly arent seeing my issue here, its that they spent time on creating something new that in the end is totaly meaningless, even if it did work as was promoted. It adds nothing to the gameplay.

Instead if fixing the issues you listed DKs were to get 2 new types of shadow/frost dmg that you need to choose what to spec into and they change nothing of your rotation, just that one of them adds direct dmg and other adds DoT dmg. Nothing more, thats what Ret rework was.

Not sure what to call Death Grip and slappy hands if not an instant gap closer. Tho i give you the lack of it in a PvE enviorment.

They did and it had a 15 sec CD, it was just outright bad in every PvP scenario because everyone now has a slow removal (aka minifreedom)

While lacking everything else? Yes!

Let me tell you the tale of Justicars Vengance, a talent that came in Legion that would deal both dmg and selfhealing, it did neither well. They shoved it as a talent in every single expansion since and has never been taken by anyone ever (hyperbole) but was used for a single month when we got our “rework” when everything was overscaled on dmg and selfhealing, thats it. And they will keep shoving in that godforsaken talent til end of time!

Yes we have better burst, thats the one point ill give you but its far more obvious when a Ret bursts and when a Ret defends.

Again Deathgrip and slappy hands is a thing is it not? Spammable slow, ranged stun/silence etc while being immune to most magic CC on a fairly short CD.

Again, if you aint pushed over a cliff, deathgrip works just fine.

No its exactly the same, thats the issue! While mages of all specs can now Iceblock, barrier, double blink, alter time, blast wave, dragons breath, ring of frost etc they also get experimental pvp talents like icewall perfect for forcing a los between a dying target and their healer, hell even sheep that no longer heals its target!

What have Rets gotten over the years? The sun sheild i guess but its not the first sheild we have had over the years, its just the latest version that replaced sacred sheild. Pvp talents are just meh.

Never claimed i did nor do i care for whatever respect you lost. I just see this as some hollow grandstanding.

Should i gain or lose some feeling towards you for admiting this? No, i dont know you enough to have any feelings or opinion on how much i should respect you.

Yes it is, its like me going over how or why i think inquisition was for ret back in the day. Still i would gladly play the spec with it if i got a gapcloser to go with it!

Except pillar of frost obliteration window has been like this for 8 years, and remain so, our situation is not the same.

One is a talent that no one picks, like frostscythe like we have, another is a baseline very imporant self sustain healing ability that quite frankly does nothing in PvP due to the nerfs it has recieved, i am not getting thorugh to you, so this conversation is finished.

As ive said… JV has been in the game since legion, a talent that none takes but is here for the 4th expansion so 8 years.

Do you have a talent like Turn evil in your tree? Its still there even after the rework. It was fine when it was just a non talent thing to give flavour of what a paladin does but as talent its not fine. That just shows that they have nothing to give the class, they have no idea what to add so they fill the tree with nothing talents. Thats why our steed is still 3 points that many only take 1 point of because they are forced to take it to get wings.

How can it be very important self sustain that at the same time does nothing?

How i understand dont expect rework, tuning this expansion ? And after The WW comes out devs will sit with smug on their face thinking all is normal. But then they will need refix talent and hero talent trees… OMG at least 1.5 year of suffering