Please finish the work on this half-baked ret rework

The rework that ret got in 10.5 has addressed some of the previous problems, but the spec is still in a very weird state as of now.

First and foremost, one of our biggest problem is that the wing proc on death mechanic is still present in the game. It’s a horrible ability design for 2 reasons, let me explain.

  1. It inflates the ret logs by a huge margin at the beginning of every tier. Ever since this mechanic is in the game, you can see how we start out at a decent place in the logs, because people around us keep dying due to lack of fight knowledge. And as the weeks go on, people start to learn the fights, and we get less and less wing procs from deaths, and then we fall extremely fast on the DPS list, just like in this tier. Looking at HC logs, at the 90% bracket, we started out in the middle of the pack, and now this week, we are almost at the very bottom. Basically this passive effect masks our spec’s real performance, making it impossible to tune decently.

  2. It’s simply wrong to make a player feel good for the death of their teammates.

Second problem: crusading strikes

Whenever Blizzard makes a talent like this, it should be carefully tuned to be perfectly in-line with the other non-passive options. I hate passive talents like this with an ever-burning passion, and I know I’m not alone. I like pressing buttons, instead of waiting for an auto-attack to go off. And the fact that crusading strikes outperforms both crusader and templar strike in a lot scenarios, makes me very sad.

Third problem: the new talent tree doesn’t allow good hybrid builds for fights that need good single target + cleave dmg at the same time. We either deal decent ST, or AoE damage, but when we try to make some form of hybrid build, most of time it’s simply not worth it, because we end up being bad at both, which would be fine if this would be the case for every other spec in the game too. But it’s not the case, because there are specs that can do insane hybrid damage with ease, so it seems a bit unfair.


Gonna have to disagree with crusading strikes.

The main problems i have with ret are the third point you mentioned.

Gaining performance when members of your party die is not something that should be happening, it paints an incorrect picture of ret performance, and it’s just overall not a good idea no matter how thematic it is for paladin.

They removed one of my favorite interactions for ret pally. Which was the wake of ashes reset. The spec never quite felt the same for me after that. Instead we got a static 30 sec wake of ashes that just doesn’t feel that great for me. Sure it does damage, but so what? The woa reset was 50% procced reliably, did quite a lot of damage, generated 3 holy power… Just felt great overall, what does a slightly more powerful woa do compared to that? Less resource gen, more wasted boj procs… But yea, when you press woa the dot+seething flames do a ton of damage, woopthy f doo.

This was by far my most disliked change for ret pally.

Seraphim was not that bad, it was easily fixable, just remove the holy power cost, and maybe put it off gcd, anyway there was literally no reason to remove the seraphim proc on a art of war proc.

So my suggestion would be: Remove instrument of retribution

Better hybrid build

Bring back woa reset, maybe seraphim but not as it was.


I don’t want to see crusading strikes become unviable. I don’t want to see it nerfed, I want to see the other option buffed to be in line with it, so players can make a choice based on their preferred play style, without loosing / gaining DPS

Bro, no one from blizzard staff likes paladins, paladins storyline and something about that.
You know, i really like paladin storyline, order of silver hand, asbringer, all what connected to story of paladins… Arthas, Uther, Mograine…

Ret gameplay is really ugly, ret rework was ugly, all that blizzard did was just like troll rework we will do ret very powerfull for fun, and will laugh at AWC with full team of ret.

How many teams wins AWC with ret pala? Ret pala not interesting for blizz, cause them more like to see how RMP do a chain of cc with * scream* WOW, that was PRO PLAY, but ret never got that chance for hear that, cause they now more like minor character…

I wish blizzard played for one hour vs frost mage+ ele, or another casters, to feel like when u pop up freedom, got it insta dispelled and staying in roots forever, only to feel that humiliation from casters.

My friend told me, go play DK, ret now is just bad, but for me ret is like that dude from blizzard, that made tattoo of necromancer…

You think the devs don’t know this? The players know it and you think the people who actually design the game and the specs have less knowledge about how they work than we do. That’s comical.

Ret is currently tuned fairly low (along with other 2-hand strength weapon specs) to account for the big boost to dps that will come from getting the legendary.

This can be solved by more haste.

It’s the case for most specs. There are few that ‘have it all’ when it comes to cleave builds.

Yup, dev still cant fix dmg from 4 tier set from 8% in pvp to 12% how its shood be

How you want it to be. OK

Then why are they hell-bent on keeping this badly designed passive? That’s comical, not me.

The legendary axe sims like 12 K higher than my current weapon, which is not nearly enough to compete with the upper half of the DPS specs this tier. Maybe after yesterday’s hotfix (dot ticks faster with haste, and can crit), it’ll be a bit better, but it still doesn’t feel like a proper legendary, in terms of power level, especially with this active ability that locks us out from using anything else during the channelling.

UH DK’s will be also eligible to equip this legendary, and they already perform way better than us, even without it, so I can see them skyrocket to the top of the charts once they get it, but ret mains can be happy if we will reach middle of the pack with the legendary equipped.

Haste scales up the damage of crusading strikes too, as the auto attacks go off faster, so there isn’t really a scenario where either oldschool crusader strike or templar strike outperforms crusading strikes in this patch. Plus if you play crusading strikes, you also have to track your auto attacks with a WA, so that you don’t accidentally waste holy powers by generating excess, which is not everyone’s cup of tea.

That wasn’t what you were complaining about. As a reminder, your complaint was:

I solved that for you.

It’s interesting that everyone expects to be in the ‘upper half’ of the dps tier. What do you expect them to do about the lower half? Make up specs that don’t actually exist to fill it?

You literally don’t understand how that talent works. There’s no amount of haste you can get from gear that would result in a no-downtime gameplay with crusading strikes, you’ll simply run out of buttons to press, unless RNJesus blesses you with infinite art of war procs and you can chain-hit with blade of justice.

I expect that there wouldn’t be a gaping gap between the top and bottom of the list.

Anyway, ty for coming to the paladin forum to argue with me as a demon hunter, pls move on and have a nice day.


Nope, 4 set gives 12% verdict strike in pvp, set description says that, not me, but in real it gives 8%, so u lost that 4% of damage from it, all r1 rets says that

Oh, trust me, there is. Look up my GM’s armoury. He was only commenting last night that, “I must try to press Wake of Ashes more often, but I don’t seem to have the GCDs for it.”

Not what you’d be saying if you played rogue, I’m sure.

If you had anything in the way of initiative, you’d have already figured out that I played ret in mythic raid last tier. This DH hasn’t been my main since SL s2, but regular forum posters recognise it so I keep it as my forum main.

And it’s frustrating :smiley:
It’s like that dream where you are runing but you can’t run fast enough


one more tier as bottom dps for RET…accorrding to post in icyveins we are lowest dps with WW monk at raid…it is so many tier s bottom even worse dps spec at raid…we have no ST…they try to give little with tier set and it wil never solve our problems…i really dont get where that hatred comes to RET…am i missing some lore about paladins disapears from wow ? or RET S- tier on classic has to die on retail WoW ? i play ret only ret more than 13 years…this not even make me sad anymore…i just feel nothing cos its may be 4. expsaion we getting same stroy…only a few tier we got litle boost thats it…chained to bottom life long…

I play ret for 15 years he cries as a level 65 prot paladin!

According to a post on Wowhead, augvoker is bottom dps in raid… consistently across all percentiles. (This may be an issue with bugs causing log errors, but I thought most of those had been fixed.)

Ret is between 2nd and 7th from bottom depending on percentile and whether the measurement is overall dps or damage to bosses (which is relevant because I know a few ret players who opt to play ST build on fights where the cleave requirement is minimal).

I know ret is in a bad place in raid right now, but it isn’t ‘bottom’, and it will improve when more people get the legendary.

This should never happen though. We cant be garbage just because maybe in 2 month we’lll get a lego to put us middle of the pack …

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You’re rather be middle of the pack now and get nerfed in a couple of months? No, I didn’t think so.

And this is total bs because there will be people who won’t get this stat stick even for half a year. Legendary weapon shoudn’t be a part of balance, it’s should extended character power because is lego, not a regular epic item.


I agree. It shouldn’t exist because it creates imbalance within a spec.