No m+ balance tuning is killing the game

[Rombei-nordrassil]

define high key ?

[Bigvick-tarren-mill]

12 and above i think can be considered high

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Bigvick-tarren-mill

People will blindly follow tier lists and it can not be changed, what can be changes is this actual tier lists which is based on perception of specs power, which can be changed by class tunings.

And you assume your average Joe thinks this through?
I will repeat once more. Your average pug leader wount care if the difference in numbers between S tier classes and F tier classes is 0.0000000000000000000000000001%.
They will still “demand” S tier classes while considering anything bellow A tier as "useless ".

[Tikkamasalah-golemagg]

@Dejarous-draenor

@Tikkamasalah-golemagg

Probably some nerfs to the ogres (the ones in the corridors take ages to kill, the drop small adds afterwards which also take ages to kill). Extend the timer by 3 mins, please.

I disagree. The amount of times I’ve seen tanks wait while people kill 20 blobs (or dps just go ham on them forcing the tank go stay back and fight for aggro). This is essentially l2 chain pull. You don’t have to finish off the last pack before you move on.

Feel free to, but with respect you’ve not done been doing 12s - I’ve been in 12s where we everyone was doing >3.0m, 5 deaths and still missed the timer by 15seconds. Once you remove the buffs from Xalatath, it’s really tight and essentially keys get abandoned after 1 wipe.

[Zenoutlaw-stormscale]

@Tikkamasalah-golemagg

It’s not just the ‘meta’ classes, some of the dungeons need some tuning.

Especially:

Cinderbrew Meadery - The mechanics are OK generally, but the timer is way too tight. 4/5 deaths on 12+ is basically depleted. Probably some nerfs to the ogres (the ones in the corridors take ages to kill, the drop small adds afterwards which also take ages to kill). Extend the timer by 3 mins, please.

Priory of the Sanctified Flame - Some of the overlaps are too brutal, like the Knight’s Disruptive Shout overlapping with a Sharpshooter Pot Shot. Also way too tight a timer, extend by 3 mins please.

I don’t mind where Cinderbrew is at. it feels manageable once you get the pacing down. But Priory is a nightmare. Tanks just get obliterated especially by Dailcry. Blood DK ironically handles it very well but most other tanks get shredded. The adds hit like trucks there’s basically zero room for error. Everything just slaps way too hard

[Bigvick-tarren-mill]

@Lynlia-silvermoon

Your average pug leader wount care if the difference in numbers between S tier classes and F tier classes is 0.0000000000000000000000000001%.
They will still “demand” S tier classes while considering anything bellow A tier as "useless ".

But thats what I’m saying: balance tunings are needed so there is some rotation and different classes are present in S tier at least once throughout the patch for small period of time. Its not all about power, its about perception too.

The thing that im afraid of is that current meta will stay like this for half a year. There is no reason to play anything different than meta then, its boring.

[Dejarous-draenor (Dejarous)]

@Tikkamasalah-golemagg

Feel free to, but with respect you’ve not done been doing 12s

Yes I have.

It’s funny that people should assume that a level 72 char on a classic server is speaking from a position of knowledge but you don’t afford me the same courtesy.

People dps a pack, everything dies and ogre has 50mill HP left. Instead of moving on they kill that ogre on its own. Then they kill the blobs on their own.

You’re losing time not chaining efficiently. Below is a friends log, not one person above 3mill, 6 deaths and they finished it with 2:52 left.

It’s about efficiency, not “overall”

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4ZcPaQzXh1dLBjrg?fight=3&type=damage-done

[Credulon-thrall]

@Hplo-silvermoon

At the end of the day there is one solution to be made is to introduce m+ queue system

Have fun waiting 2 days for the invite to pop, because no sane tank or healer would even consider random M+ when they can already cherry pick their keys.

Especially at a level >12 where comp and experience stert to become more and more important…

[Macpew-draenor]

@Bigvick-tarren-mill

So now when meta has become clear and its almost impossible to get into a key as non-meta class in pugs, especially high key. People prefer waiting for 10-20 more minutes just to get meta class, even if this will be some fotm reroller with less experience.

Utter poppy cok.

Unless your referring to the highest of the high (15+) I have seen (with the exception of Aug) all manner of classes and specs in keys.

Lets not forget that anything above (is it 13’s for 3k?) has no purpose other than testing yourself to see how far you can go.
For most 10 is where they draw the line.

[Bigvick-tarren-mill]

Literally this weekend I was not invited to keys (even to resilient ones) when I had my last +14 to complete and then when i hovered over group I applied to I’ve seen mostly dk, mage, balance and elem there (premadegroupfilter addon shows classes in group). Once I was invited to group as a prot warrior (despare, but I have done this exact dungeon +13 as a prot before) but then vdh applied and I was kicked and vdh was taken instead.

Blizzard is doing balance for mythic raid but can not do balance for m+ which is more popular? And so what that for most 10 is their goal? Raiderio cutoffs show that this is still 20% of players, are they not worth worrying about? Why are even people protecting blizzard from literally doing their job? Is this some form of Stockholm syndrome?

[Credulon-thrall]

Less 20% of players that engage with m+ at all, which is arguably +/- 20 maybe 30% of all players.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-tww-2/eu

There are currently 206390 KSH Characters in the entire EU, at least half of them likely alts, so +/- 100k accounts at best.

WoW has millions of subscribers. if we assume it were “only” 2 million in teh EU, then Balancing the game for 100k of them is the definition of balancing for the top 5% and ignoring the 95%.

And the statement that “M+ is more popular than raid” is tenuous at best, since nobody has hard numbers to track raid progression via the API and logs are not mandatory.

[Zenoutlaw-stormscale]

@Bigvick-tarren-mill

Literally this weekend I was not invited to keys (even to resilient ones) when I had my last +14 to complete and then when i hovered over group I applied to I’ve seen mostly dk, mage, balance and elem there (premadegroupfilter addon shows classes in group). Once I was invited to group as a prot warrior (despare, but I have done this exact dungeon +13 as a prot before) but then vdh applied and I was kicked and vdh was taken instead.

Blizzard is doing balance for mythic raid but can not do balance for m+ which is more popular? And so what that for most 10 is their goal? Raiderio cutoffs show that this is still 20% of players, are they not worth worrying about? Why are even people protecting blizzard from literally doing their job? Is this some form of Stockholm syndrome?

Did you see the April fool’s patch notes? They joke about the exact class imbalance issues people have been screaming about. So they know the state of class balance. They’re clearly aware.

[Bigvick-tarren-mill]

@Zenoutlaw-stormscale

Did you see the April fool’s patch notes? They joke about the exact class imbalance issues people have been screaming about. So they know the state of class balance. They’re clearly aware.

Yes, I’ve seen and that was hilarious. They spent so much time writing some comedian nonsense and can’t release actualy useful tuning.

[Nanodrake-tarren-mill]

@Bigvick-tarren-mill

Yes, I’ve seen and that was hilarious. They spent so much time writing some comedian nonsense and can’t release actualy useful tuning.

Yes, because changing something JUST for M+ isn’t possible either, so they have to see what they can nerf without impacting Raid tuning to much and vice versa, M+ and Raid are not seperated like PvE and PvP is.

[Warlóór-steamwheedle-cartel]

@Lilíith-draenor

that its a nonsense. a lot of people quit - yes - but thats because they already achieved whatever they wanted aka all portals / AOTC and unsub till 11.1.7 when it will be worth coming back

you can get +10s done on literaly any combination of classes and specs in game.

anythign abve is meaningless as its only for tryhards

so yes - blizzard do not care

pretty much

[Tsjoh-argent-dawn (Tsjoh)]

Luckily i am not good enough for the keylevels where meta matters.

[Lilíith-draenor]

@Bigvick-tarren-mill

I bet there are a lot of people who havent reached their goals yet or just play for fun and they are not being invited even to their +7s anymore, so not only tryhards suffer. This is not the reason to give up balancing the game.

if you dont get invited to 7s its not because of your spec- its because itehr your score or your gear is subpar - or both .

nobody goes full meta for 7s because you would sit in que forever .

10s ? or 12s ? sur but thats compeltly diferent thing.

both are huge gate - for a very very good reasons.

[Lilíith-draenor]

@Zenoutlaw-stormscale

@Bigvick-tarren-mill

Literally this weekend I was not invited to keys (even to resilient ones) when I had my last +14 to complete and then when i hovered over group I applied to I’ve seen mostly dk, mage, balance and elem there (premadegroupfilter addon shows classes in group). Once I was invited to group as a prot warrior (despare, but I have done this exact dungeon +13 as a prot before) but then vdh applied and I was kicked and vdh was taken instead.

Blizzard is doing balance for mythic raid but can not do balance for m+ which is more popular? And so what that for most 10 is their goal? Raiderio cutoffs show that this is still 20% of players, are they not worth worrying about? Why are even people protecting blizzard from literally doing their job? Is this some form of Stockholm syndrome?

Did you see the April fool’s patch notes? They joke about the exact class imbalance issues people have been screaming about. So they know the state of class balance. They’re clearly aware.

its kinda hillariius how people voice out about X or Y - but then when meta happens its always for a different reasons then they think

member the discussions for last few years about which healer is meta because they do more dps ? current meta shows how nonsensical they all were with oracle priests builds .

also if anyone tried to do keys liek 14 in pugs ? thats definition of masochism .

just find a guild or a full premade

[Viscent-argent-dawn]

@Credulon-thrall

@Hplo-silvermoon

At the end of the day there is one solution to be made is to introduce m+ queue system

Have fun waiting 2 days for the invite to pop, because no sane tank or healer would even consider random M+ when they can already cherry pick their keys.

Especially at a level >12 where comp and experience stert to become more and more important…

LFD queue is optional, not mandatory. For people who doesn’t like to queue M+, they can still use the existing pug mode.

LFD queue just offers another option for players who wants to use it . If it takes long time, let it be. It is people’s choice.

And it certainly won’t take 2 days to queue in. The core idea of LFG is auto queue, the queue time solely depends on the supply/demand of each role.

Even for LFR which has 2 tanks, 5 healers and 18 dps, the longest dps queue won’t pass 2 days. The dungeon queue for each role can only be shorter, since no one has the ability to inspect or reject others because of class/spec/score.

As long as one has the item level to queue, he will get in eventually.

LFG doesn’t guarantee the success of a random group, but it guarantee a player to get a group if he chooses to queue.

[Zenoutlaw-stormscale]

@Lilíith-draenor

its kinda hillariius how people voice out about X or Y - but then when meta happens its always for a different reasons then they think

member the discussions for last few years about which healer is meta because they do more dps ? current meta shows how nonsensical they all were with oracle priests builds .

also if anyone tried to do keys liek 14 in pugs ? thats definition of masochism .

just find a guild or a full premade

OP’s got a point.

Season feels like it’s on life support already. You can’t even start a +2 on an alt without staring at an empty queue for 15 minutes. It’s either pure elitism gatekeeping the low keys or the dungeon finder is broken. I believe it’s both at this point. And if 1000s are online but no one’s signing up…There’s no third option. If you’ve got thousands online and not a single person signs up for a +2 a month into the season then either everyone suddenly turned into IO snobs overnight or the system is broken. I’ve seen a lot of werid stuff happening to the dungeon finder this month.