Is this genuinely a conversation worth having? Warcraft 1 had so little lore that the narrator actively improvised the introductory campaign cinematics; “God” is just a leftover concept back when the Human kingdoms had very, very little lore beyond being traditional European knights.
It was retconned; if you RP worshipping the Christian God, you’re practically lolling.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to play a human with such a belief, the argument here is wether one is actually present in the game or not.
Gonna need some source there.
Why? Roleplaying a spin-off sect or even an entirely made up religion isn’t a problem at all. In what sense would it be
if for example I played a character who worshipped the Sewer Beast as the god of canals or whatever? Who exactly is harmed by this / why exactly would that be inherently bad? In the same sense you can RP a guy who follows an outdated dogma from the Church that went out of fashion after the 2nd war that still spoke about angels/God etc
It’s not headcanon, it’s something from one of the main games of the Warcraft series. It is absolutely official in the same way that any RTS content is
IDK why everything must be a hard retcon - isn’t it more interesting to think that the people of Azeroth have developed a deeper understanding of the Light over the years and the idea of monotheism has become less popular with humanity etc
I see it as the same sort of thing as Stormwind being called the Kingdom of Azeroth back then - just an antiquated thing that is not longer popular / widely done but I don’t think it is a massive distortion of the lore to use story from older titles that hasn’t be explicitly retconned
Yeah, Alterac (unironically)
It hasn’t, though
How exactly do you think relgion works? It’s called faith for a reason - you don’t need definitive proof of something existing to hold a religious belief. If some character decides that an omnipotent being exists in space or whatever and invented the Light then that sounds like a pretty bread & butter fringe religious sect concept to me
Like I believe that one day you will make one good post LOL … owned … joking bro always love seeing you post for real
That actually is more interesting. And gives people things to discuss with their religious characters of the essentially same faith.
Sure. My point is there is Abrhamic references in WoW from multiple games, a novel, quest text etc – thus your character can believe in a Abrahamic style creator of the Holy Light (or otherwise) if you wanted to. The Holy Light literally have churches, cathedrals and abbeys and dress as cardinals and popes with titles and namesakes. It’s obvious where the Light heavily draws inspiration from before it moved towards a more superficial philosophy. But the original ideas haven’t been retconned through the ‘passage of time’ necessarily as presumed, as it crops up again and again; small as it is.
Source: I was there.
It would be nice to see that explored in WoW. I’d love a complex examination of each of the surviving cultures of the Eastern Kingdoms, like we got in Kul Tiras. But so far we’ve just got Stromgarde looking worryingly Lion-covered… 
It doesnt have to be bad at all. But the issue arises when its not treated as just a weird/small sect IC but proclaimed OOC as how the entire human religion is, as an OOC fact.
It has never been mentioned outside of Warcraft 1 and 2. It was replaced in whole by the Holy Light, retroactively too.
But this isn’t true, Perroy! You have read Chronicles! Humankind have historically worshipped The Light since The Troll Wars; https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Church_of_the_Holy_Light
God is by far not the only retcon from Warcraft 1; an awful lot of it has been retconned since.
Abbendis believes in a Holy Light God in Wrath.
God I love misclicking and posting stuff prematurely.
I share the same emotional reaction to the Shadowlands lore. As a Highborne roleplayer, and a night elf roleplayer more generally, so much of my character’s history is marked by loss: he has lost his wife, his mother, his grandparents, and now much of his race. In the past, it was of great comfort to him (and, in a strange sense, to me) to know that his loved ones wandered the stars with the Goddess Elune. It’s as if something fundamental has been taken away from that storytelling, something which speaks to our human spirit on a deeper level than any of this new lore ever could.
I think this is the key point, really. This strand of narrative logic which honours good, reviles evil, reassures us of the peace to be found at last, and suffuses the cosmos with these messages — which, for Warcraft, was inherited via influences such as Tolkien from a Christian worldview which believes this is all true of our world — is something which made the Warcraft setting strong, and the setting is impoverished without it.
I see your point, and I think you’re right that the depiction of the Naaru as inveterate authoritarians hadn’t solidified by this point, but I think the seeds are still there. Xe’ra isn’t corrupted or fallen in the sense typically portrayed in the setting: she carries out all her sinister actions in union with the Light, beginning the setting’s presentation of the Light as at least containing tendencies toward authoritarianism. Nor is she alone or aberrant: she’s the leader of the Army of the Light and works in concert with other, lesser naaru.
It could’ve gone another way, especially if Blizzard had followed up the possible plot thread of Elune, as a great good, preceding both Light and Shadow. But this ended up being a final departure from the Christian view of goodness and freedom as perfectly coinciding: true goodness doesn’t suppress free will, and true free will doesn’t conflict with goodness.
I think it’s pretty despicable to insinuate that someone is an Islamophobe by way of dogwhistling. I’ll simply leave this here and note that both Queteron and I subscribe to this:
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.
— Nostra aetate III
Just adding to this: regardless of whether or not the Light is referred to as ‘God’, at least some humans such as Abbendis definitely do regard it as a personal god and not just a cosmic force. Humans pray to it, after all, and Blaise Pascal described prayer as ‘the dignity of being a cause’ — that is, in sharing in the will and action of another.
The argument here is not, “No character can believe The Holy Light is a singular God”. The argument is that the God from Warcraft 1 and 2 has never been referenced in any significant capacity since Warcraft 2. We know the origin of The Light and humanity down to the number.
I encourage roleplaying wacky religious concepts. I play a priest who worships Tyr as a singular deity. My argument is that humankind never on the whole believed in a singular God, because of how heavily retconned this concept was. Singular characters can do and believe what they please.
As I already mentioned, I wont speculate further, but I made my comment based on my own personal experience that every time yet Ive seen such posts or words, it has ultimatly been their(as in who makes such posts) issue & point.
I also said that if this was not the case here, it would be a pleasant surprised. So I guess it is one then and all is well on that front.
God has been referenced by other Light worshippers since.
I am so glad you feel this way too. Around and after the launch of Shadowlands, I felt like outside of my guild there wasn’t many who saw any problems with its lore - aside from a more general view that the afterlife shouldn’t be explored at all, which is fair but not exactly the same.
It is the first time I have wanted to actually outright ignore new lore, though so far we’re fortunately in a situation where it simply has not mattered yet. I have taken everything until now in stride, but the consequences of Shadowlands upturns so much of my emotional attachment to the roleplay environment. It’s all too much, too dark.
On the contrary, it is the deviation this that has created Western notions of good and evil. So much so, that many people do accept the fact that objective reality is simple fiction. Everyone who claims to have it has a different idea of how it works. That’s what makes it great, when contrasted with a theocracy dictating matters of good and evil. The good vs evil in Warcraft is the good vs evil in any other situation that involves conflict. There’s always been a range of “big baddies,” thrusting otherwise evil characters into the roles of good. For example, one day, the Horde is taking part in war criming the Alliance, the next they’re joined together in defeating the Legion, before getting back into old habits.
If only it were the case historically. It does actually bring me back to the point of Naaru supposed to being these benevolent creatures of Light, when they can turn out quite the opposite. Thankfully, Naaru are set apart by not going to Goldshire. But I do want to see an Alexander VI Naaru now.
I’m going to answer this, in part, with a quote from François-Alphonse Aulard.
“From the social point of view, the Revolution consisted in the suppression of what was called the feudal system, in the emancipation of the individual, in greater division of landed property, the abolition of the privileges of noble birth, the establishment of equality, the simplification of life . . . . The French Revolution differed from other revolutions in being not merely national, for it aimed at benefiting all humanity.”
I am also certain that you know all the examples you have referenced have strong links to the French Revolution, and why it’s far from pop history to point to the FR as the birth of the West. It is abundantly clear that France had no more interest in the current state of Christianity, outlawing it before its return. Separation of Church and state was little over a century away, despite conservative reactions via the Empires.
I want to get into what definition(s) of nihilism you’re using, as I would find that essential to proper discussion. I’m just not convinced it fits into many, if any at all.
A very charming concept still popular for human RP that has always left a sour taste in my mouth after the Arathi Honour Guard used Tyr = God worship as a means to shout n@zi phrases and other pseudo-racist stuff
oh no
oh no no no
Ultimately it’s these kind of losers everyone has an issues with regardless of stances on topics or split views on other things.
Be cool instead and enjoy the fantasy setting.
I really wish white supremacists would stay away from Nordic mythology themes.
They ruin everything they touch and now every time I see someone wearing a tiwaz I have to be wary in case it isn’t just used for its simple stylishness.