Would love a source that proves they can walk the streets of Gilneas too, to be honest. There’s none in-game and even Caelia who actively wants to be there to improve diplomatic relations tells the Horde to leave Gilneas after the liberation. If your leader tells you to leave, are you saying that means some Horde guys can randomly just stay and decide Gilneas is their new home? If so I would refer back to this:
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Yeah, obviously you’d expect she wouldn’t park the forsaken army on another kingdom’s region huh.
I think this is just a paternalistic stance to take tbh. You’re trying to objectively tell people what is viable and what isn’t based on your own headcanon view, a headcanon that may be in open conflict with the lore right this moment, but it is an issue that you choose to ignore, seemingly.
To me, your post just screams bad faith all over it, which brings me back to the idea that you’d just punish/enforce death on RP characters for not accepting your own headcanon.
I’m afraid the only one here doing so is, as ever, you Zaphius. It’s sort of sad to see zero improvement in someone over 5 years.
You’re free to headcanon as you please that the player character being able to do something means anyone can do it, but I’m afraid most RPers simply don’t subscribe to that mentality, to my knowledge.
Instead people generally go by what NPCs are shown to say and do, and given the lack of any NPCs talking about Horde being welcome in Gilneas, or lack of Horde NPCs standing around there, that’s how most people will likely take things going forward.
That was your criteria as indicated here.
You seem a bit forgetful. As far as I’m concerned, the Dalaran analogy remains 100% applicable.
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So you yourself do not even have a clear or confirmed answer and are simply espousing your far less likely headcanon given that we know for a fact Caelia pulled the Horde out of Gilneas and hasn’t returned with any sort of diplomats or workers ever-since. The view that the Horde are not welcome roaming the streets of Gilneas is the most likely and currently most-canon viewpoint. Your denial is a bad faith argument made simply to take a contradictory stance and defend objectively poor-quality RP in the name of “creative liberty”.
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Bit of a moot argument when Blizzard made an effort to slap Horde npcs into Amirdrassil with a clear explanation why and on what terms they’re there, while theres an absolute lack of the Horde in updated Gilneas within the same content patch
Clearly the latter indicates what the rest of the Horde should be in Gilneas, ie. completely absent
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There is also a difference between Bel’Ameth and Gilneas, multiple ones actually.
Both share similarity in that the reason for their downfall(or in Bel’Ameth’s case, what its replacing) is the Horde. Bel’Ameth however was litterally grown and created as a way of renewal. It’s entire story and the night elves ended up focusing on moving past the horrors of what happened and let it stand as a monument of peace moving forward, semi-connected to the dream.
Gilneas did not have that story. And Gilneans have already been shown to have a pretty immense dislike for the Horde, forsaken in particular. Gilneas is less about a new way forward, and more “Lets take back our home”. The Horde even being involved was a strange decision, but its portrayed as “Lets fix our mess” kind of deal.
This also doesn’t factor in that for most Gilneans, they’ve seen their homes twice now taken by the Horde. First Gilneas itself, then later Teldrassil. Even if they helped take it back from the Scarlets who now inhabited it, there is going to be some strong animosity there.
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Only Alliance cities tho, which means trust in this way goes one way: which could add fuel to the scepticism of ome’s character.
Most of my characters find it extremely distrustfull of the Horde he is still not allowed anywhere near their lands, but is supposed to accept Horde can visit his new home in Bel’ameth…
Same could be said for the Gilneans in Gilneas, so surely the Horde has to be hiding something from them again
To put this in perspective. This is what I think so far:
-
We are in BFA. More-or-less 6 years ago.
The above cinematic heavily suggests that a new non-aggression treaty between the Alliance and the Horde would be different from the previous ones. Or at the very least, that they would try to make it better than previous times. How would that be different? I would have believed this was just another “oh well isn’t that cute” cinematic with no substance behind. -
Now, that is, until DF the cinematic meant nothing. However, the concept of it being more than a non-aggression treaty is reinforced this expansion - where the Alliance and the Horde don’t send armies, but rather organize for a joint research expedition. Whereas previous situations saw them fight together out of dire necessity, now there is an attempt to organize and cooperate to build something together. But again this doesn’t mean this is a widespread approach, as it may be relative to the Dragon Isles and more specifically, the Expedition, no?
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Enter Bel’Ameth, and more importantly Gilneas: it shows that certain Alliance cities tolerate, albeit barely, Horde-loyalists in their city. It’s quite the change, imho, and all these points kind of make a trend after a while.
I’d say it is a matter of honesty to attempt to discern when you know something for certain, and when you may be wrong.
It is very weird that I have to specify it in order to make it clear: the fact that I acknowledge I may be wrong isn’t a weakness in my eyes, but rather a strength. If you do not see what makes an argument stronger or weaker it’s not on me.
I’d like you to link the statement - since this is the third time you refer to this source, I want to have it crystal-clear to know what you’re referring to.
Not there yet, but I did find this early on:
https://i.gyazo.com/0a594da8541baced9959b2ac5e7806bc.png
03:42:16 Lilian Voss says: I have an Alliance contact meeting us by our boat. We are going ahead of the army to offer our aid.
03:42:24 Calia Menethil says: And to ensure we don’t take King Greymane by surprise. His dislike of the Forsaken is well known.
03:42:31 Calia Menethil says: Watch yourself, tensions will be high.
I’m assuming Swordmaster is correct because it’d make sense to pull out of Gilneas if there was already concerns before it even started.
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The final part of the questline for Horde have this:
“I know this fight was not ours, ‘Insert Name’. But I thank you for your assistance. It was with the Alliance’s assistance that Lordaeron was cleansed and the favor has now been returned. I do not think I can hope for peace. Instead, I will hope that these efforts have led to at least an understanding of the plights of both Gilneans and the Forsaken. Let us meet with Lilian in Pyrewood Village. This celebration is not for us.”
And then at the very end:
“Calia Menethil says: Thank you for your assistance, ‘Insert Name’. I know I asked much of you in aiding the Gilneans.
Calia Menethil says: I only hope that Tess continues to prove more… diplomatic than her father.
Lilian Voss says: I know her well. She cares far more about what people do than what they are.
Lilian Voss says: Still, it’s probably best if we give the Gilneans some space for the time being. Let them enjoy their homecoming.
Calia Menethil says: As they allowed the Forsaken to do, not too long ago. We’ve kept our word. It’s time we returned home as well.”
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Hallowed Monstrosity says: But the Light… is with me…
Princess Tess Greymane says: We… we did it. It’s over.
Calia Menethil says: It is. And as promised, the Forsaken will take our leave. This land is yours, as it should be.
Genn Greymane says: Yes, as it should… Tess, meet me outside. I have something to discuss.
I know this fight was not ours, . But I thank you for your assistance. It was with the Alliance’s assistance that Lordaeron was cleansed and the favor has now been returned.
I do not think I can hope for peace. Instead, I will hope that these efforts have led to at least an understanding of the plights of both Gilneans and the Forsaken.
Let us meet with Lilian in Pyrewood Village. This celebration is not for us.
Thank you Vixi for the additional sources on top of these as well.
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I will also say this: I have seen similar conversations on discord, trying to pull “you’re all alone” card is, quite frankly, just dishonest and you know it. Otherwise you wouldn’t be in a thread that complains about the number of Horde people you spotted in Gilneas. We can have the good old post “buut Zaphius is a contrarian because I actually have to think critically and back up my statements rather than bully him to submission” approach, which clearly Swordmaster seeks to return to for reasons that I’m sure wouldn’t really surprise me, or we can have a serious conversation and try to discern what the lore actually is, or at the very least what are Blizzard’s intentions in all of this.
Which I think is what we should see as the important bit. Because we can stop the conversation right now if people cannot do anything but resort to insults. By all means, bury the head in the sand, but quite frankly you’re not fooling anyone.
This conversation SHOULD be in your interest, for people are making these kind of conversations all over the communities, and providing canon sources rather than “trust me bro” should be an important part of how you find out what is canon and what isn’t.
Back on discussing actually important things, I think it’s not a strong point: narrative-wise, we know we begin at a point where the Horde would absolutely NOT be welcome in Gilneas.
Seeing how we know the gilneans accepted their help afterwards, and the forsaken were not refused outright, I would say this dialogue is intended to show how the dynamics with the gilneans and the forsaken will change for the better.
On top of it, I’ve also seen a cinematic which has Genn abdicate - with one of the implicit reasons being: he refused to accept the changing dynamic between the gilneans and the forsaken, unlike Tess, which is instead more open to cooperation with them. Here:
Genn glances away, spotting Calia Menethil speaking with Gilnean citizens.
Genn Greymane says: The world is changing, Tess. And much as I try, I find it hard to change with it. But you have proven yourself a thousand times over, my girl. And this kingdom… now belongs to you.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Beginning_a_New_Dawn
Hmm, I don’t think any of this is very relevant, really. We all knew the military forces of the Forsaken left Gilneas: their leader saying “we are leaving because this is your nation” is barely anything new or noteworthy.
The interesting bit is this:
Which suggests that as of now, the Forsaken’s official approach is to “give them some space”. Not exactly a conclusive statement, but a suggestion of the official Horde stance in Gilneas.
I find it fascinating that gameplay reasons are often taken in the most favorable interpretation for the poorest of logical directive in RP.
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It’s not conclusive, but I take it personally to read that for the time being, they will stay out of Gilneas way. There is no need to rock the boat essentially.
It does open the possibility for things later down the line, which could also be used to perhaps do roleplay with Horde delegates and Ambassadors in smaller numbers.
Unrelated to the topic at hand but
Man I really do feel that other thread that got made a while back about the Horde being left behind. I know the reclamation of Gilneas isn’t for Horde players, but it feels like there’s really very little differentiating the Horde reclamation experience from the Alliance one. The dialogue differences are miniscule if at all.
Honestly it gives me the impression that it was only put on the Horde side so that Horde players could also get a mountable fox and a fancy set of clothes.
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‘Return to Lordaeron’ and ‘Reclaimation of Gilneas’ should have been in the same or near patch in my opinion instead of over an expansion apart. Especially when the Bel’Ameth and Emerald Dream story already had a huge Alliance focus over Horde.
Again, gameplay reasons. Because Blizzard softened their stance of cross-faction efforts, they make up weak or even silly reasons to allow Horde or Alliance players (results may vary for them. Don’t forget Robo-cat in 5.3) to do the content that should be unique to said faction.
I don’t get this decision, it dilutes things, it’s preferable to have a high quality quest tailored to faction/race in question than make it a free for all.
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This kind of half-approach is also in the Man’Ari unlock. It’s a really cool customization option, and I am all for that on that note as it gives more stuff for people to roleplay.
But the questline for it and its story justification is quite weak.
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Thanks to the lore dumps by our local sleuths regarding the Horde’s presence in Gilneas I now feel happy and on the right side of canon about helping remove those savages.
Thanks folks!
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I will be honest, Zaphius, you seem to really be looking for and grasping at straws.
Look at what is being said, and the history of the conflict and the texts that were established, and tell me that the logical action and outcome here is to be there as a Horde member.
It’s clear all of the setting and the recent dialogue hints towards a momentary cooperation that was extinguished the moment the scarlets were removed.
On top of all, let’s not forget what the players wanted there: we had the establishment of that roleplay as an Alliance event that would not welcome others, and a bunch of self-invited people who decided to push for an hour and a half of arguing instead of taking the logically sound option since the very beginning: not going there.
It was not a good move to be there to begin with, and it is not a good move to now claim deeply illogical things. One thing is to be in a truce, the other is having a bunch of opposite faction people staying in the city you’ve recently reclaimed after two hostile forces decided to settle there.
I think players and the community should have a degree of agency to decide such, because the canon has proved insufficient to cover for this very necessary answer, so at this point everyone will lean towards whatever notion of common sense.
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