Because often not following the mould puts you far behind others.
So then whats the point in having any options at all ? They may as well go “here go level to level x and here is the optimal talents” and give the players 0 options. For all intense and purposes they may as well remove talent tree’s altogether in that case.
To give players the illusion of agency.
You get new talents, you used them one expansion, they get replaced for the next expansion. That’s the definition of borrowed power.
That’s not a talent tree rework. Talent trees have never changed that much from expansion to expansion, they just got out of hand having to be so large and they changed the system.
Now they are back.
Borrowed power is the Legion Artifact, BfA Neck, Covenant system etc.
Why not? what exactly excludes talents from being borrowed power?
So when a passive ability (power) is attached to an item, like a legendary that gets removed at the end of the expansion, that’s borrowed power but when that exact same passive ability, exists in a talent tree and gets removed at the end of the expansion, that not borrowed power?
I’m not saying it is, probably won’t be, but IF it is, and doesn’t even need to be the whole thing, how many talents need to be reworked or replace to be considered a new version of the talent tree? that only lasts for one expansion
They did change quite a lot, let’s say that not for the first two expansions, where things were only added, but even so, the MoP talents and the BAF talents, even though they shared the same layout, were vastly different with different philosophies.
Again we decided to bunch together those things you listed there and wrongly call them borrowed power because of one trait they have in common, the AP grind, not because the fact they’re temporary.
Many things are temporary but you don’t call them borrowed power, it’s all about the marketing.
It’s clear you want to think of them as the same. I simply don’t agree.
Your character was ineffective under the borrowed power system until you’d done the necessary grinds. Talent trees don’t work that way. Although they may be tweaked from expansion to expansion they aren’t anything liked borrowed power. You level up your character and have full access to your power, you can just gear up in your chosen fields of the game and off you go.
i play druid and i rarely switch them
feral: same build for m+ maybe 1-2 changes, st and aoe changes in raids.
guardian: same build for raid and m+
resto: same build for m+, some changes in raids.
i lost more than i gained from my general utility spells.
Yes, which brings me back to my original point (which i now realize i made in a different thread) that when people say “borrowed power” they mean something you have to grind for and not something that goes away at the end of an expansion.
Failing Keys due to doing sub 30k DPS isnt realistically fun.
I’d disagree, dependent on the content ur doing ofcourse… in open world or solo content its very unimpactful to run sub optimal Talent set ups.
Talents don’t necessarily vanish. Borrowed power systems are a specific system that comes in for just that expansion for everyone across the board and then are removed at the end.
It doesn’t really compare.
But to you they are the same. To me they are not.
I’d argue that it’s not as impactful in a good amount of the more challenging content either, but that this myth has been pushed into ‘factual’ status over the years (to be clear: I’m not saying this is true for ALL challenging content).
But not only that, there’s also the real problem of people just demanding way too much of others, without an actual realistic reason, because of this myth normalization. This hurts the playerbase and leads to a lot of toxicity, elitism and exclusion.
I dont consider it Elitist or Exclusive… nor do i think it hurts the playerbase, i’d agree maybe if we didnt have a thousand guides to copy and paste the builds from and this was “well first figure out best build and then come bring it”.
but its Not. its highly Inclusive.
also to stack, no it is Actually extremely impactful. Im a 370 druid. i started Outdpsing a 411 Druid Who ran a Raid build in M+, When u think Having a Incorrect build drives a Wedge large enough in DPS… to nullify a 40 ilevel gap. the DPS loss is HUGE.
and before u say “skill gap”. no
i’ve been a max level druid for less then 24 hours.
Im sorry… but Expecting correct builds. isnt elilist. its acceptance that this game isnt 100% Balanced… i’d actually question the fact some think its Ok. to do 50% of the Damage they should be and Pile the responsibility of carrying onto others Its rather a Weird mentality to have…
Then we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I even take issue with that phrasing. There is no ‘incorrect’ build.
There’s different builds. Some work a little better at certain things than others, sure, but they all work.
That is what I’m talking about. There’s this meta myth that’s become normalized. But it’s far from normal to force people to do things in the way that someone else says they should be done.
No that part isn’t elitist, but it’s borderline authoritarian.
Here is such a thing again… You don’t get to tell anyone else how much damage they’re ‘supposed to do’.
I find meta behaviour to be highly destructive to the social nature of WoW, not to mention the freedom of just playing what you think is fun in a game. I dislike everything about it; but then again, I’ve always had an issue with authority and people telling me what to do. So there’s that. 
We obviously have extremely different views on this. And that’s fine.
But please understand that it’s your kind of mentality that has lead to me to not wanting to play with other people in this game; because going into a group based activity feels like going to prison.
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heres the fact, doing tank level DPS to play the build u want, isnt “working alittle less”. Its Just completely sabotaging ur group.
actually no, Removing meta would be highly destructive to the social nature of WoW.
heres why, Lets cast our minds back to DF Launch, the screechs from Dungeon finder players from having higher tier players in their groups, did that look like a happy social situation?.
no. it didnt. it was highly destructive.
Its Important meta Exists and is public, because this allows Players to identity those wit hthe same Mindset as their own. and Simply not play with those who dont. because our Mindsets by default will Clash, and Dampen each others Enjoyment in the game.
If me and u found ourselves in a singular group together.
Neither of us woudl enjoy that experience, we simply cannot share game space in such sense. because we play the game for different reasons.
Mentality?..
My mentalities perfectly fine, U cannot do the content with bad builds. if 5 players with bad builds do a M+10 u wouldnt time the content. you seem to have a Unrealistic idea of the DPS Loss caused by this.
People who sit there like “oh but i’ve timed a key with a sub optimal build” Tend to ignore the fact they were playing with 4 others who all had correct builds which carried them.
It’s not a fact. It’s your opinion.
If you make the encounter; it’s fine. Nothing was ‘sabotaged’.
If it becomes clear that something is not doable just because of 1 person; then that person can be called out for it. But that’s usually just not the case except in the very high end of challenging content; and there it doesn’t happen as much because those people mostly share the same mindset.
However, that mindset influences less dedicated, less knowledgeable, less skilled players. And that’s how this meta myth was created; through a trickle down effect.
I have no idea what you’re talking about here.
Not perse. If you wouldn’t tell me what to do and just let me do my thing, I wouldn’t have a problem with you. Other players simply do not get to tell me how I (should) play this game.
But yeah, there’s obviously a different mindset. But imo the division shouldn’t be people like you deciding others ‘aren’t worthy’. But the content itself.
Right now that is not the case. Meta is a thing sometimes even in the most simple content, because of the trickle down effect I mentioned earlier.
But the heaviest hit content is the mid-range difficulty stuff. You can see it all the time with the complaints about pugs and player behaviour and whatnot.
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Never said people arent worthy.
But you must reliese. The same freedom you ask for in concerns to playing what u want, must also be given to those they invite / play with.
You may play whatever you like, but everyone is also allowed to play with whoever they want and refuse to play with whoever they dont want.
I know. And that’s why I don’t group up often, except through queues, where people have no such power. Players being given power over other players is always wrong imo. It WILL be abused one way or another. Gamers are quite selfish people unfortunately, when it comes to ‘their’ game.
Meta is healthy for a game despite the outrage of the situation.
To the DF intro dramas im talking about the casuals who screeched for “speedrunners” to be banned due to them rushing casual content and forcing players to deal with it.
The devide must exist. A group of mixed mentalities simply doesnt work.