There are many reasons for the lack of interest in M+.
They are unforgiving. The amount of mechanics (read: crap on the floor and stuff to step in or out of), the insta-kill mechanics. It gets overwhelming to the senses. I dare you to do high keys without any addons.
The knowledge requirements are extensive. You need to at least know every boss ability (like for healers knowing the EDNA tank debuff dispell f.i.), know the mechanics, and probably also know which trash mobs have insta-kill mechanics. Then thereâs the timing of everything, knowing what will happen when and what to use at which time (especially cooldowns).
This community does not play WoW like we did in the old days. Today, itâs live on the edge, pull big, give healers an aneurism trying to cope. The biggest culprit here, besides the new player generation being very twitchy, is probably the timer.
What I see as a huge problem is that there is no learning curve here.
For one, instead of leveling up people to max lvl in a day, you could rethink this, and use the leveling time to educate players on their class, all their abilities, the timing and rhytm of things, by immersing players in all different kinds of situations where they can experience everything they will be subjected to in high lvl content but then with increased difficulty. (Instead of fetch quests, give healers healing quests, teach them the ramp up mechanics of their class, teach dps about their high dmg dps windows, etc. You know, all the stuff you need to go metagame)
Secondly, why not have all the M+ dungeons on all keys available non-timed, so people can learn the pulls, have someone explain the mechanics if they are still unsure, so they can try out alternative ways to pull groups or even use cc. Maybe these training dungeons should also have the ability to reset packs of mobs.
Because, now, people learn these dungeons while doing them, and in a lot of the cases they fail, because thatâs part of learning, and then the whole thing gets toxic very fast.
Lastly, in the future I think you need to rethink your dungeon mechanics design. Insta-kill mechanics are lame. A good game letâs you recover from a mistake, not brick a key, get kicked, get a 30-min debuff and feel like you never want to step into an M+ again in your lifeâŚ
I think higher keys should just increase the hp of mobs, not necessarily their dmg so much, or you leave the hp/dmg the same, but you tighten the timer (and force ppl to think out of the box to complete the highest key timers).
Overall, you need to tone down on mechanics. I like to fight in dungeons, I didnât sign up to become lord of the dance hopping in and out of every puddle and swirly. Look back at how Classic did raidbosses. There was plenty to keep players engaged the whole fight, without the risk of having an epileptic attack from all the effects going off at once. Naxx f.i. had brilliant encounters. They were more about execution, and less about survival. You didnât die right away because you took a second to think what you needed to do. Today in M+, that second gets you killed more often than not.
Look, thereâs two types of content in a video game:
Where you can win despite failing, and where you canât.
If you can do a challenge without having to optimize your rotation, use utility or worry about dying, most players will learn nothing.
The average player has no inclination for self improvement in general, because itâs considered elitist to want to improve unless youâre in a wipefest.
Without instakill mechanics these players wouldnât bother learning mechanics, and it would drive healers insane having to heal through fails. Right now if a DPS gets himself oneshot, Iâm perfectly calm because because Iâm blameless.
Thereâs more levels of difficulties in WoW than ever. Any of the lower ones could be considered training, people just donât care to learn unless the game prevents them from progressing, at which point they complain about content being unforgiving. Duh.
No, thatâs not true. Like I mentioned before, good games let you recover from a mistake.
A second mistake shortly after the first killing you, sure. However, you learn nothing after youâre dead.
Thatâs why I mentioned they need to inculcate this behavior much earlier on, while leveling. Leveling up is a joke. You can faceroll to max level. If they implemented a class course for you to learn your class while leveling, people would enjoy their class a lot more, feel happier playing it and engage a lot more with higher content like M+.
They tried, people didnât like it. And the only thing that prepares you for running M+ stonevault is failing M+ stonevault then checking why you died and what you couldâve done better.
Healers let you recover from a mistake because every mistake in WoW translates to taking damage. And speaking as a healer we hated this, which is why any decent healer will favor oneshot mechanics for failing.
Plus Iâve seen people survive fails in +10s with good use of defensives so itâs already possible to recover to some extent.
To put it bluntly, bad players are bad because of themselves, not the game. Everyone has the opportunity to improve, if they want to.
Addons are not necessary. I did many M+ seasons in the past without or with very little addons. Iâll likely complete this season without addons. By completing I mean getting all portals, I have no interest going higher, but I doubt that having to deal with addons is the hardest thing for +15.
The knowledge requirements are not extensive. Almost every mechanics in the current season is obvioius, either from animation or from cast name. There are very few exceptions and you probably will learn those exceptions when you would farm low keys.
Making those challenges for leveling is dangerous idea. There are plenty of people who are noobs and wonât be able to compete those challenges. Theyâre playing for story and will stop playing if they wouldnât be able to quest. I guess it might make sense to introduce questing difficulties like you can turn on hard mode and quest with x5 experience modifier.
M+0 is non-timed and you can learn the pulls. Itâs hard enough, unless you are overgeared.
There are very few insta-kill mechanics in low keys, so you can learn anything and timers are forgiving. People donât leave because of a single mistake.
Your suggestion will not work, because keys would become too easy which will naturally lead to people hitting the wall higher and complaining the same.
No, never in the history of WoW, and Iâve played all expansions, did they ever teach players the intricacies of classes and how to play them. Never did I get a quest that required me, f.i. as a fury Warrior to make sure my character was enraged and pop cooldowns in a proper manner to overcome a dps check, as a way to learn that very skill, or learn as a disc healer or resto druid how to properly ramp up your healing, which skills to push in succession and the timing of everything. Those are things you need to meta research and then try to implement on your own.
At least in Classic they sometimes made a quest that required the use of a certain skill to complete the quest.
You know the rotations you learn on Wowhead or IcyVeins and such, thatâs what they need to teach IN game.
We all assume everyone metagames and learns all these things, but I bet a very significant percentage of the playerbase doesnât, at all. Then people, who have studied every aspect of their character and dungeons/raids through metagaming, who sim their character to the max (another thing that is completely metagaming), then complain people donât know how to play the game.
See, no. If the game doesnât teach things in game, you cannot blame people for not knowing these things. You seem to think metagaming is a given. I disagree. Metagaming is for those pushing the limits, but without it, casual players should still be able to engage the content. Itâs clear thatâs not the case for M+.
No, it isnât. Not if you implement it in a good way.
Btw, itâs a bit patronizing to just state other players are just noobs and would quit.
You could implement it by making quests completable in degrees. The quest would remain accessible, like a daily quest, if you want to retry and get a better result and better reward.
Really? Whatâs the wisdom behind that statement?
People could finally learn how to play high keysâŚand now itâs too easy and itâs again not good?
Are you afraid it will diminish your own accomplishments? Surely, if you are that good, you would still do better than all those people.
Iâm just looking to up the engagement in M+ and remove a lot of the toxicity.
You had to drop markers at locations
Draw patterns on the ground
Stack in groups based on debuff
Isolate from the group and wait on healing
Dance in patterns
Hide behind pillars
Like there used to be so many fun mechanics. Today itâs more a zerg fest and a lot of encounters cause sensory overload cause everything is just purple.
Dont think its to hard mechanic wise, its a git gud problem.
Raid bosses with 1-2 mechanics and class rotation like autoattack and spamming frost bolt? Truly a challange. It was harder to get attuned to the raids than the bosses inside mechanical wise.
MoP proving grounds silver was a requirement to join random HC dungeons in Legion, and the challenge was enough to make people drag their spells to the action bars and have a basic understanding of their utility and cooldowns.
A significant part of the playerbase couldnât/refused to do it and filled the forum with angry whining. (In the meantime the dungeons felt awesome because people knew how to play their character).
This is how you identify bad players/employees. âI can do anything, as long as someone shows me howâ. So can a trained monkey.
Teaching means putting someone in a situation where they can grow. If you donât have the will and perception to do so, then youâre a bad player.
Youâre talking about forcefully strapping someone into a chair and MAKING them go through a tedious tutorial.
âNow click ability A, cast it on the mob. GOOD JOB. Now click your CC, cast it on the other guy. NICELY DONEâ.
Players will hate this and they wonât learn anything.
Part of the difficulty is having a timer, itâs one of the most basic forms of adding a challenge.
Untimed runs already yield something at the end, it just depletes the key, and it counts towards your Greater Vault.
I wouldnât oppose the idea of replenishing a key at the cost of it dropping a level, or reusing a depleted key to keep trying that dungeon level to completion but it doesnât go up in level and canât be reused for another timed complete run.
Youâre new, apparently. Iâm not, and Iâve played all through vanilla, including vanilla Naxx.
I didnât say they should scrap the timed M+ dungeons.
No, itâs not a git gud problem. Itâs a âfunâ problem.
You must not have played it, if thatâs what you think it was. A fight like Razorgore in BWL had plenty to keep everyone occupied.
Thatâs bs. Classic was not a zerg fest at all. I stated it before, it was more about raid execution. You could not zerg any boss in Naxx, they all had designs that prevented anything of the kind.
If anything M+ dungeons are a zerg fest. You pull 2 to 3 packs, clump em all together and aoe everything. Itâs design that reduces all classes to their basics, tank, healer or dps. Apart from kicks, thereâs almost nothing in your kit you still use that sets you apart as your class.
âŚand thatâs exactly what the game does not do.
You would make a bad gamedesigner, if thatâs how you think it should go.
I didnât say to remove the timed dungeons, just to add untimed ones with some training options, like being able to respawn mob packs f.i.
That still requires someone to sacrifice their key, and youâre limited to a certain dungeon and a certain level of M+. My idea is to allow you to enter any M+ at any level, even allow you to skip or repop certain mobs or bosses, with QoL addons like showing you timers on every pull, just to train.
I like an mmorpg genre that caters to all kinds of players:
casuals, semi-hardcore and hardcore.
With this expansion Blizzard listened all too well to those semi-hardcore players, because they didnt like that casuals got good gear so easily. And that almost killed the expansion.
This is what youâre asking for.
People could have learned in proving grounds, but those who need it the most ignored it. They couldâve learned in M0 but didnât. Blizz made solo dungeons so you can experience the whole thing at you own pace, but since nothing can kill you people ignore the mechanics instead of learning them.
Just accept the fact that some people are bad and donât care to improve no matter what.
So what are untimed mythic+ dungeons for? Just practice? Cuz if youâre giving them the same rewards youâre absolutely scrapping timed mythic+ dungeons because everyone just takes the path of least resistance.
than play lower level ⌠if u fail on +7 practise on +6 to be better and that is it and maybe find 4 other ppl and play together and push and get slowly better
