last time I checked wasnt paladin suppose to be a slow moving juggernaut? much like DK still is, but holy and not dead?
Why give them a horse? or 2?
you already deal way too much burst dmg even without wings, so instead of being a slow heavy hitter, you become lightning mcqueen but as a bulldozer.
maybe I’m just being extremely nit picky, but this is what I feel rn.
I wouldn’t say it was a slow moving juggernaut like DK; historically Paladin has had a lot more movespeed stuff than it does now (Pursuit of Justice, Speed of Light etc)
As for the horse, it’s very on theme. Paladins have had mount-based fantasy in their kit since day 1 (Crusader Aura).
It’s pretty cool really; mounted warriors of the light on their gleaming steeds charging headlong into battle… Makes for a pretty epic scene. (I can imagine something similar to Helm’s Deep)
However, most of us hate the spell mechanically, especially larger races like Tauren getting stuck in doors etc…
It’s a nice idea thematically, but from what I’ve seen it’s hated by most paladins from a gameplay perspective.
Pursuit of Justice, yes. Paladins already had Hand of Freedom in their kit, and the two together was great. However, nothing more was needed, the reason why we got Speed of Light (and Long arm of the Law) is because the other classes kept getting new utility, so Paladins had to get something too. Personally, I’m not a huge fan of it, I much prefer classes that have weaknesses and strengths, rather than all classes being mostly equal.
Crusader Aura did not exist in Vanilla. Also, another thing to point out is, even though you summon your Charger / Warhorse, Paladin was never much of a summoner class (Divine Steed, Blade of Wrath, Angel are what we have now compared to Vanilla’s Charger / Warhorse), so it doesn’t really fit into the fantasy as well, from both a design and gameplay perspective.
Well I hate it from every perspective. xd Clunky, removes a key weakness from the class which was neccesary for balance, no Pursuit of Justice because of it, and imo looks very silly.
Paladins theme is Holy Knight, Seraph. Its fantasy isn’t being slow. Quite the opposite. Our horse is called Charger. We should be charging into battles on horseback.
Oh, guess Crusader’s just been around since my day.
I don’t really think of Divine Steed as a magical summon spell, I imagine it more like the horse sprints past and the paladin grabs the saddle and swings onto it like in an action movie.
You’re right it is clunky as heck, probably because it’s on the GCD.
Paladins were priests who learned hand-to-hand combat (at least the Humans and the Dwarves after the Humans spread their order to the Dwarves) and even though they are “Warriors of the Light”, their main purpose was healing the wounded and protecting their people. That was perfectly done with being a great healing class with lots of defensive utility to back that up. How are they supposed to do that if they are charging into the middle of everything? That fantasy is fulfilled much better by the Pursuit of Justice + Hand of Freedom combo.
Wrong. Priests led by Alonsus Foul looked for most virtuous and just people among knights and taught them magic when they saw that priests weren’t enough. Priests didn’t learn “hand to hand combat”. Priests taught already existing knights and those training to be knights in the way of Holy Magic. Who was first Paladin? Uther. He was a knight. Same with other 4 paladins Turalyon, Tirion, Saidan and Gavinrad. They were all knights. And first to be taught Holy magic and became first paladins.
Yes, I did remember that wrongly, but my point still stands: they are meant to heal the wounded and protect their people. I guess a good defense can be a good offense, by charging into combat with our trusty steeds, but I can’t see them healing and protecting their allies that much that way. Keeping closer to allies however (Pursuit + Freedom) can allow them to keep an eye on their people.
Problem is that Vanilla failed Paladin class completely so people still have that perception that Paladins main role should be healer. I just told you, lorewise, Paladins were Knights. Knights, in medieval times were best soldiers. Paladins primary role should be melee combat, with off healing.
In that case, it’s the players who failed Paladins. Take a look at this: (can’t post link, but look this up on google: Spelladin raid DPS [Pre-BIS] and [P3 BIS] – NEW META)
Turns out them holy bois are one of the best DPS classes in terms of both actually dealing damage and progression (and not to mention, they still provide a lot of support utility).
It doesn’t make a difference then that they’re Holy Knights? I suppose Warcraft 3 nailed it best: the Paladin class has access to Holy Light, Devotion Aura, Divine Shield and Redemption, while being in the thick of combat (basically a Retribution Paladin). But we had that ever since Vanilla (being on the front lines), but the only difference being that Knights with heavy armor actually being slow (but unstoppable due to their faith in the Light, Pursuit + Freedom), whereas today, we can just hop a heavy armored horse instantly with our own heavy armor out of nowhere to sprint across the battlefield.
I know WoW isn’t about being realistic, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense (and it doesn’t make a lot of sense gameplay wise too: it eliminates a core weakness of the Paladin class, and the spell itself is extremely clunky to use).
Nah, Blizzard badly designed them. Kevin Jordan admitted in Interview with Countdown to Classic that Paladin was one that failed when it came to Class Fantasy.
Well if we look at warcraft 3 then they failed most classes. Shaman used to have Bloodlust, Lightning Shield and Purge and Far Seer had Chain Lightning , Feral spirit, Earthquake. Yet in WOW it ended up spamming Chain Heal.
Problem was awful Vanilla talent system. They rushed with talents before release so they made that trash we had until MOP. Prior to that Paladin had something called Holy Strike, but they didn’t have time to polish it.
What Paladin is today, is what Paladin should always have been. Holy Paladin requires melee to be effective. Retri Paladin is what it should be and well prot Paladin, i dunno.
Kevin Jordan failed his original goal, but he created something better.
Yes, they did miss BL, Feral Spirit and Earthquake, but to that I say that Shamans weren’t just about being Resto in raids. Of course they couldn’t finish what they started in Vanilla, but the end result was still an amazing class that a lot of people love and loved.
MOP talent tree took away a LOT of the customization that was available, which made the game a lot more enjoyable for both min-maxers and everyone else involved. I do agree that they rushed it though.
I sort of agree, but the overall gameplay thanks to idiyet blizzard is very boring for pretty much 90% of the retri playerbase (including me obviously). But other than that, a lot of hybridness was lost over the years, something that made Retribution stand out of the lot. Now it just feels like a very bad Subtlety Rogue with some party-wide utility and a good burst. No magic cleansing, no actually good heals, no sacrifice, the worst blessings ever, no seals, outside templar’s your abilities hit like a wet noodle… etc.
Again, missing a lot of support utility that was lost over the years, but the main problem with Prot nowadays is just the overall gameplay: mana is cosmetic, no holy shield, an overall Tank design mistake of only focusing on mitigation, not mitigation VS threat…
Well he didnt create something better. Paladin ended up staying behind like priest casting occasional heal and buffing. It was complete and utter failure when it comes to both Paladin class fantasy and game design. Can you imagine Holy Knight just standing behind casting few heals and telling people “I bless you with the might” while being best trained close combat soldier on the field?
No it wasn’t. It was just a class that was rotated in groups for Windfury totem, wasn’t that good of a healer compared to others. Thats not good design. Going from class that was supposed to summon wolves and destroy enemies with lightning to dropping wooden logs that help others.
No. You didn’t have any customization when it comes to gameplay. Builds were cookie cutter and choices inside build didn’t impact gameplay at all. Today you have far more options when it comes to gameplay customization. Today talents impact how you play not just class, but spec too.
I don’t think its boring for 90% of retri playerbase. Retri paladin have most options when it comes to customization today. If you look at logs you can find 10 different paladins with different talent builds, different azerite traits, different trinket choices , different essences, but being very close to each other in damage.
Yes i kinda agree here. I think prot was very good during Wrath actually. With Holy Shield, Redoubt doing holy damage during blocks. It was pretty fun to level as Prot during that time when you pull tons of mobs, consecration, holy shield, sanctuary and things kill itself.
Using Seal of Wisdom and going meleeattacking is something that was used by a lot of holies to gain back mana. I suppose it’s not the same as what the “actual design” suggests, but it’s there. Also, again, that is only if you are healing - there were Retris and Prots going around too, even if they were not the best in their time.
Well for the most part that’s what holy pallies do today too. Melee healing is only relevant if you are playing Avenging Crusader (and that’s every two minutes). The only thing that actually encourages you to go closer to the front lines is Mastery, which can be completely ignored. Only during downtime they deal damage - which all other healers do nowadays given healers are literal Gods today.
Yes, Windfury was very useful - it supports your party, which made you valuable, approved and loved. But again, that’s not what the class is only about. You still got two versions of DPS in there (and even a tank)! Even if they were not the best, shaman wasn’t just “windfury and chain heal”.
So no. They were THE best raid healers, while also being very good singletarget healers, and being able to buff others in the meantime. But healing is not what it’s all about - a lot of people just prefer looking at numbers, not at what the class brings to the table. To this you could say that “restodruids were literally only brought for their inner and CB ress” but besides that they provided a very Strong tank buff, they are a very flexible class, and have very good raidhealing besides that.
The wolves only came later on, yes. But, elemental shaman. It was one of the strongest burst classes in the game. 3 minute mage aint got nothing on an elemental shaman targeting you.
Because cookie cutter builds don’t exist today? That’s a mega strawman argument. Many people argue that it was filled with talents like “+1% hit or crit”, but compared to the total freedom of choice of talents, gear and consumables compared to the regulated “freedom” of what we have today, Classic literally offers more customization options than BfA. Classes today are being made on a factory line: 90% of the class is given to you, and you can customize the remaining 10%. In Classic it’s the other way around.
Well today you play specs, not classes in the first place. But that (talents impacting gameplay) existed in Classic, and will (hopefully) exist as long as WoW will exist.
I don’t know if you’ve seen the forums then (or talked to people in game), but most retris find the spec to be very boring to play. A lot of people I talked to can only play retri because that’s the class and spec they played for so long now.
But was it enjoyable for them? Customization doesn’t neccesarily mean instantly having fun at what you are doing. I suppose being creative and coming up with new stuff is fun, but there is a finite amount of builds, and finite amount of ways you can play the spec. I personally enjoy the holy pally build I put together for PvE, but not so much the gameplay simply because I find it very silly that Paladins can do things that were originally supposed to be their weakness (Group healing, having mobility). A lot of people prefer having differences between the classes with strengths and weaknesses than having all the classes be extremely similar to eachother.
Classic doesn’t offer more customization options than BFA. If you are gonna be frost mage, you are gonna spam frostbolt. Thats your gameplay. Talents will only increase damage and reduce cast of that frostbolt. No matter how you customize talents your gameplay wont change at all. Nowadays talents provide actual customization. Talents are meaningful and change your gameplay.
And no, today we dont have “cookie cutter builds”. You can play different talent choices, different stats, different essences, different traits and still be competitive.
If Vanilla was released today as original game, not as recreation for nostalgia it would receive same treatment as Fallout 76, even worse. Unpolished game, badly designed , full of bugs, rushed to release for monetary gain.
Imho if we are strictly talking about class fantasy, I believe that horse stuff really fits the class.
But from a game mechanics standpoint, I don’t like it. Back then they had a passive, small movement speed increase, and it was perfectly fine.
Nowadays there are many classes that fits like crap because they are too slow. Well, not too slow, but too slow compared to other classes.
I don’t know when this started, probably around mop, but blizzard really went overboard with the movement speed abilities. So yeah, no horses for me. But that’s not just a paladin issue.
Again you are just reducing it to the raiding environment, without taking dungeons, leveling and PvP into the account. Yes, for the most part it is spamming frostbolt (unless you are using Blizzard for aoe), but today frost mage isn’t that much different: you still spam that glorious frostbolt, but if something is lighting up on your actionbar, you are going to press it. Tbh not much of a difference.
Have you ever seen a frost mage raiding build? Alongside the Frostbolt talents, you have a lot of utility talents. Your gameplay is literally defined by your talents. If let’s say you take Impact for PvP, you are going to be able to spam Scorch more effectively. If you take Blast Wave, you suddenly created an agressive spec that has 3 different instant melee range spells (not counting Nova). If you spec deep frost with Block and Barrier, you suddenly created a more defensive minded build with a better mana economy (given that Frost spells cost less mana, and they cost even less with some talents - remember, mana wasn’t a cosmetic back then!). If you were to spec into Arcane, you gain two extra cooldowns with additional utility talents. It’s not as black and white as you make it to be.
Same goes for Classic btw. There are just simpler and powerful specs that a lot of people use (case example non-winter’s chill frost mage raid spec in Classic). Why is it that p much any holy paladin you see plays with the exact same spec that Icy Veins says (glimmer)? Because a lot of people are lazy to find out what’s the best performing spec, so they just copy paste. There is still customization today, but it’s quite regulated.
Vanilla was heavily criticised even back then, but at the time it offered a completely unique experience that a lot of people loved. By 1.12 the game was in a very good state - which is why a lot of people still play it on pservers nowadays.
What are you talking about, we already are among the slowest classes in the game and you want to even take what little mobility we have?
We only have 1 mobility spell baseline and it lasts a whole of 3 seconds, 3 seconds of which we can be slowed, stunned, disoriented…
Seems to me like someone got killed by a paladin and just went to the forums to whine when all you needed to do was use your slow that can be kept up for 100% of the time and just kill him/her easily.
Also we don’t have the same tools as a DK, a DK has a gap closer in the form of Death Grip and a DK basically has a perma slow where as paladin does not.
That slow moving juggernaut bs was something that Blizz forced down on us when they reworked the spec for Legion. Nobody wanted it, we were perfectly fine with our mobility before that but now we can’t really choose.
I’d say this happened in Legion. When DH’s came out.
And yes, paladins have always been slow moving and hard hitting. They have been faster than their DK counterparts yes, but not at the current state.
Warrios are the ones that have been more agile and have had more mobility (member intervene to banners?).
tho they got mobility instead of self healing
(fury is just retarded, we dont talk about that healing)
and lots of defensives you could put on yourself or allies.
I’d sacrifice some damage heck even during wings if either
Steed lasts a tad longer or we get a grip sort of spell maybe a challenge spell which forces a target to face you and slows them a %?
Heck I dunno but I know I’d sacrifice damage for some movement speed if we had to.
As it is I like the feeling of connecting to a target and devastating them.