iirc, their tbc taunt was actually a 3 mob aoe taunt. i loved it cause it could pull not 1, but 3 mobs away if they were flying all over the place. the main issue with pala tanking in tbc that i recal was there was no ranged pull. another annoying thing for classic pala tanks, if we’re talking 5 man content.
I aware of that…And i have no problems with that.
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so hunter have what elsen than tranq?
Warlock have NOTHING for the raid and their dmg is worse than rogue, warrior, and mages. So why taking a warlock?
actually you only need warriors and mages if you want to be optimal. Maybe take some rogues until AQ40 because warriors are worse before AQ40
But you didnt get my point. Paladin can do acceptable damage, and you wont wipe or have it worse because you take a ret with you.
Same with warlocks, hunter or druids. You wont need them and their dmg is worse than mages, but it doesnt hurt to take them …
But i think, the only thing YOU can do is quotes. I dont see any argument.
Like nearly everybody in this forum, you are just a salty player, who thinks he needs only the best classes, but cant play good by himself
Okay so I leveled as ret from 1-57 and quite honestly it was dire that being said I am not a ret expert and it can be played well just look at esfand whos probably the most known and best ret paladin I have seen in Vanilla.
I would recommend leveling a fury/prot warrior instead as your likely to have more fun rather than dealing with morons who don’t know that Ret is a legitimate spec calling you a meme spec.
I know of 3 ret paladins at 60 on my server as of right now that I have played with who do amazing dps and easily outdamage rogues and warriors and even some hunters but thats not to say I know every single ret on the server because I don’t.
If you want an easy life without having to deal with the morons who will say * why are you memespec* then don’t play ret but its 100% a legitimate spec and just requires you to know your class and gear in the correct way.
Show me 1 fury warrior or rogue that can dispell, buff, off-heal, BoF, rez, CC undead etc etc.
Paladin is a SUPPORT class regardless of spec ! Of course his damage isn’t gonna be as good as a pure damage class.
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That’s enough of a reason to take a hunter.
Summons, soulstone, heathstones…
This is wrong and is kind of the whole point of this thread.
You do need them. I already listed the reasons why. And since this is the first time you mention druids - Rejuvenate, MotW, Thorns on tank, Innervate… Are these all “useless” to you?
I gave you plenty of arguments. All you do is keep saying that “raids are easy, so I can get carried, np” but with different wording in each post.
This is some next-level BS right here. First of all, fury warriors and rogues are currently top DPS @ 60lvl and will remain that way for at least half a year or so. And what do you mean by “and even some hunters”? Are you implying hunters are out-DPSing warriors and rogues?
Considering same gear, a ret will NEVER out-DPS a rogue, warrior, mage or hunter. After ZG comes out, also warlock. What you’re saying is just total nonsense.
Show me 1 holy paladin that can’t do any of these.
It’s shocking how all of these replies come from paladin players who simply refuse to acknowledge that they rolled a class that is not viable as DPS. And Kirin, who probably has a paladin but is too ashamed to even post from it.
I was just talking as in those 3 people who were similar geared to rogues and warriors and what not I didnt say they were exactly the same geared.
And here https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1000#metric=dps&dataset=95&class=DPS
You can open a sister-thread of this one about shamans, if you want. The result will be the same, except that a good enh can actually bring a lot to a group in terms of Improved Weapon Totems, Enhancing Totems, and totem weaving.
Warriors should be tanking, they shouldn’t be taking plate DPS gear. 
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Not biting this bait.
Nope.
If only there was a paladin spec with superior utility to even ret AND can actually perform a role…
Kek.
It has nothing to do with shame Nessor. I post from Kirin because Kirin is the char I mainly focus on at the moment in terms of playtime. My paladin in Classic is level 8 so far, I could bump her 2 levels, but after I’m done taking my time with Kirin I’ll pop her to 60 soon enough. Not in a rush. And no, this doesn’t mean I don’t know anything about paladin, I’m quite obviously a vanilla player (sigh) and I’ve also been experiencing/following the paladin scene on private servers for years.
Buuut I guess you don’t understand that kind of stuff since you’re clearly just an ignorant stubborn brick wall.
There’s no need to show you 1 holy paladin, since there’s a ret that can do it. You’ve got 1 paladin that can do it. That’s good enough.
Anyway, I won’t bother arguing about anything with you since you’re obviously incapable of listening to reason. It’d be a waste of time because I know that your skull is amongst the thickest on the planet. Doesn’t house much, but eh, at least you give some strong headbutts.
I guess maybe if you insult people enough, they’ll start agreeing with you?
#10chars
Has anyone tried to get aggro for paladin with healing , should be faster then what he can do with his “tanking” abilities!
It’s not. Paladin healing was actually a tank strat back in the day, and it was nerfed into the ground because it was crazy viable.
And your joke was in rather poor taste. Prot paladins are excellent aggro generators.
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Wanted to add a bit of detail. Was a retadin (reckadin) for the whole of vanilla. Had a Sulfuras and AQ40 gear, played PvP to rank 10 or 11, can’t remember which, raided casually to Naxx. Spent probably 2 days Holy in the entire thing. I was your archetypal half arsed PvP focused raider.
Basically the problem with pally DPS is even after 1.9, the so called Pally Patch, the ability scaling was really low. Ret has a passive ~1.2 modifier to all damage from their main hand and about 1.3 to all Holy damage with all auras and buffs up. Unfortunately, the spell scaling coefficients on their Holy damage are all for instant damage spells - .4-.5. Further, those instant damage spells have relatively large cooldowns, and their one consistent damage ability (Consecration) is a massive mana sink. The result is that while the Strength and spell power coefficients as a whole converged on each other (especially against undead), neither was particularly high, so you lost out to classes that had a single source of damage such as warriors, who famously scale to the level of death in raids.
There are two caviats to this. First, paladins below 60 are on par with any DPSer you could name. I don’t care if you think you can outplay a paladin, you can’t. They have instant, static damage spells and the same autoattack as you, often far better multiplier coefficients, and most of YOUR damage comes from talents and scales with gear. Theirs doesn’t. A paladin has their full damage suite by level 30. So from 30 to 60, they are tank, healer and DPS in one. You want one for dungeons. Never mind that a halfway competent leveling PvP paladin is able to pretty much make your dungeon group immortal.
Second, paladin gear is massively overleveled for its type. All dedicated ret pally gear carries both strength and spell damage, which if you do the maths, turns out to mean that they actually get a lot more benefit from that gear. This includes Judgement, btw, which is surprisingly good for a ‘DPSer’ despite having a ton of intellect on it. The consequence of paladin’s weird Multi Ability Dependence is that they tend to have lower health than most classes geared similar to them, but far more stats dedicated to actual DPS.
Paladins also uniquely benefit from slower weapons due to Seal of Command, so a weapon like a Sulfuras has no business being anywhere close to any other class unless they are PvPing. Frankly, your Sulfuras should be going to either your long suffering shaman or your long suffering paladin healers. Their game sucks so you can have fun.
Not sure why paladins waste their time getting Agility. Loads of pallies obsessed with insane crit - it mainly affects Vengeance uptime, but around 25% of their damage is Judgement and Consecration, and they scale much better with spell power than Agility. 20 AGI for a paladin is a 1% crit chance increase, which corresponds to a net increase of around 0.9% DPS from your current level.
Private server people talk a lot about Spelladins. This was due to their builds having early game bugs in SoR (and SoC) which enabled it to proc off pretty much everything. In modern Classic, this behaviour is not present, and those builds will be ineffective.
On live Classic, if you want to do damage as a paladin, you gear for pally gear. Meaning the Strength spell power crit MP5 quadfecta. You are wasting your time going XTREME warrior gear. The crits look big, but the lack of scaling in your abilities means you’re reduced to a big crit machine. A more balanced approach scales a lot better, since Judgement can remain a large component in your damage suite, AND you get the benefit to your heals which you WILL be using.
As a former and current Ret myself, I will be handling raids in the same way I did on the previous version. I’ll heal as Ret or Reckoning until the content is beaten and on farm, then DPS when bored of that. Anyone claiming I am somehow less effective than a normal healer on this is blowing smoke. This is especially if I decide to drop Precision from a PvP spec (because lets face it who cares about 3% hit in PvP unless you are doing arena) and get Illumination.
About half my time in early classic was spent decursing, so there’s also that. I’ll also run raids for hybrids, to avoid the problem that people mention in this thread of their ‘experience’ being ‘ruined’.
Frankly, I did this all 15 years ago as a tryhard. There are guys in this thread throwing spittle at the screen about how NO ONE SHOULD EVER DPS AS A PALADIN are blatently wrong. Under 60, anyone telling you that you can’t is talking crap. Over 60, it entirely depends on if you haven’t got something better to do. In groups, a Ret paladin is essentially a must beyond 50 for any group that has a non paladin healer simply because of Blessing of Salvation. There is no DPS class which has anything like as much ability to add DPS to a group as that single blessing.
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So going back to the question asked by OP (the point of this thread I would assume):
Do we all agree on the following answers?
Yes, paladins do very poor DPS.
No they haven’t changed anything.
Yes they are really awesome tanky healers with a wide toolkit.
Yes, paladins do very poor DPS.
Below 60, their DPS is fine. They’re actually better than almost any melee DPS class barring a rogue solely due to Blessing of Salvation and would get a group solely based on that, but people are just… odd, for some reason.
At 60, they do middling DPS. A decently geared one will comfortably own a DPS spot over say, a healer or a tank, but will not compete with a dedicated DPSer with proper gear. This is due to their ability scaling coefficients being distributed across two stats, and a lack of a second on command DPS ability. By TBC’s final patch state, paladins were a useful, but not table topping DPS.
No they haven’t changed anything.
1.9 shifted a lot of pally damage to an on command basis and increased their gear scaling. Most paladins hadn’t adjusted to the new damage style before the end of vanilla, and by that point their reputation as any kind of viable damage was long dead. Most were still trying to run Big Critz warrior gear. Some, like myself, couldn’t regear fully. There was also the Reckoning hangover - for Reckoning, you did go full warrior gear with some INT because of how ridiculous full crit Reckoning burst was.
Further, there’s progressive itemization from the outset now. So actually they did change quite a lot.
The rule for Ret pallies in a raid is easy. If you have your tank healing covered already and your dedicated healers are priests and druids, Ret pallies add more to a raid than another random DPS class because of the raid wide blessings and Judgement of Wisdom/Light. If the blessings are covered, and the Judgements are covered (not always guaranteed, since healers will often not be able to jump in and cast at closer range), then it’s not worth it.
Yes they are really awesome tanky healers with a wide toolkit
They call fill any role until 60, at which point mana issues and gear scaling prevent them from being tanks and DPS. Judgement of Wisdom by itself is worth doing.
So yes?
/10char