Yes retri DPS is not relavent in end game raiding.
I mean we can relativize and/or bury the lead all day, but does anyone actually claim that paladins do competitive dps at level 60?
On a side note Iâll gladly pug with ret paladins. People can play what they want.
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I wanted to explain why people have the opinion they do, what specifically causes Ret DPS to be sub par, and when you should ignore it.
Just blanketly saying no is incorrect. You gain about the same adding a competent Ret to your group in a 5 man than you do most other DPS simply because of Salvation, provided you donât have a paladin healer. Just simple maths. They make other classes better at what they do. Thats why you take them.
In raids, it entirely depends on your healer makeup, your blessing coverage, and your Judgement coverage. Itâs basically whether you stand to lose out by giving up 40% of the DPS of a full DPS class for its utility.
Nothing more complicated than that. In PvP, a good Ret or Reckadin is as good as any other player. They canât kill healers, but they are close to immortal, do insane burst, and can put out serious healing at almost no cost.
In terms of raw DPS, at 60 they just donât have the ability scaling to keep up with other classes. So no, itâs not great.
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People without psychological issues will not care as long you can help and the job is done, Paladin is not pure dps so cannot considered as main damage dealer on the other hand has lots of utility and in some dungeons with demons - undead actually stands out.
(this to reply some posts stating âpeople will not invite youâ and bla bla bullsh1t)
Most people who donât like Paladin as dps (Ret) are mostly people who are dps class themselves, who min/max, who listen to media and reproduce it, who donât know and always talk in general
In my experience it mainly comes from Ret pallies from pre 1.9 days running around meleeing everything in pure warrior gear, never blessing, never healing, never cleansing. Pre 1.9 Ret was genuinely worthless. Post 1.9 Ret was actually a DPS spec, just not a very good one.
Alrighty then.
This thread is not about Paladin DPS being good or bad. Itâs all about clashing player mentalities.
Have fun in your 10+ Mages and 10+ Warrior Raids with getting your gear.
Have fun in your mediocre mixed bag raids with progressing at lower speed.
In the end itâs about finding like minded people and having fun with them. 
Exactly. Nobodyâs arguing that ret dps = warrior dps. Whatâs being discussed is if ret has a place in group PvE or not. To which the answer is yes, in certain situations. But as soon as you say that you have an army of greedy warriors jumping out of their hole throwing blanket memes at you about ret dps being inferior to war dpsâŠJesus we get it already.
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This is flat out wrong.
A full spell power Paladin in raids, currently, if you look on Warcraftlogs is only pulling 50% a lower underperforming Warrior is pulling.
You wonât do the worst DPS in the raid, but a Paladins best will never beat a Warrior average.
Is this actual retail or private server junk because the mechanics are different in both cases. A lot of private servers still have the proc concatenation problem where procs are counted in combat text. You can see in a lot of Esfands videos that they werenât able to fix it, and SoR is proccing in weird circumstances.
For the record you are right, and âspelladinsâ arenât viable simply because paladins gain comparable or superior benefit from strength unless AoEing.
I do not remember that. I remember, sometime in TBC, or Wrath, Paladins at last got a taunt. However you had to cast a spell on the current target of a mob to cause that mob to target you instead. As it was so weirdly convoluted, because clearly the Blizzard developer was still resisting allowing pallies to tank, everyone macro-ed it, by using target of the bossâs target.
It actually is exactly about Paladin DPS being good or bad.
And the answer is âtheyâre badâ.
The consequent question was âbut is it worth bringing a ret to a raid?â.
And the answer is âno, since it gives nothing that Holy already doesnâtâ.
This thread never was about breaking stereotypes or whatever, nor would it ever break a stereotype which is based on hard facts. There simply is no logical reason to purposefully take a ret to a raid, unless the raid is somehow lacking paladins.
It was in TBC - Righteous Defense, a ranged 3-mob taunt that was far better than the warrior/druid tank. In 2.4 it got patched to also work on enemy targets, so the macro youâre talking about was not used in WotLK anymore.
And if youâre gonna talk about Blizzard not allowing classes to fulfill roles they were meant to fulfill, then maybe you should mention shaman tanking.
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The macro worked something like this:
#showtooltip Righteous Defense
/targetoftarget
/cast Righteous Defense
/targetlasttarget
It didnât need the targeting modifiers.
Near the end of The Burning Crusade I remember paladins got a similar tool to a standard single-target taunt.
It was even designed to cause 1 damage to allow it to act as a ranged pull, I abused it a lot for doing Netherwing dailies.
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Yeah, I know. Iâm telling you that after patch 2.4 this macro became obsolete. People using it in WotLK simply never bothered to read patch notes.
Currently playing 21/0/30 AP ret and while doing mostly dungeons as a healer I happen to go as DPS once in while. Iâve run damage meters and most of the time Iâm last if I donât significantly outgear the competition or they are simply bad at their job/semi-afk. Still if Iâm the only paladin in the group my buffs far outweight the lessened DPS I contribute. Salvation/Might/Wisdom and Auras are as strong as ever. With a second paladin this goes down a bit but is still useful.
In PUG raids Iâm bottom-of-the-barrel. While I had only one experience of actually doing DPS in a raid so-far due to a general lack of healers and paladins for PUG Raiding.
Why am I still specced that way? Solid PvP performance, best questing ability for paladins and going full holy just doesnât give enough benefits at this point to be worth the loss of solo ability. Currently thinking about some Holy/Prot combination but I still have some content to deal with that benefits from ret.
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Finally a reply from an actual ret pally who doesnât live in a parallel universe made of mushrooms and coke.
Itâs pretty much the same as being a shaman DPS. I hit 32lvl with my shaman yesterday and almost instantly received whispers for SM: Lib farms (WF totem is learned @ 32). All I had to do is put down WF + strength totems, Magma if I had the mana, throw a Purge or Earth Shock every now and then as well as an occasional Healing Wave (Now that I think of it, this is actually everything an Enh can do). I was last in damage, but that hardly mattered when the 3 warriors above me with WW axe / Ravager were going poggers all the time âERMAGHERD DEM WF CRITZ BROâ.
I think our record was 14min40sec, but one of our warriors was actually dual-wielding 25lvl greens, so I can maybe cut 2 more minutes from that. All in all, I got 3 levels in no time.
Anyway, back on topic: yes, youâll be last DPS in dungeons, but since youâre very likely to be the only paladin there, your buffs heavily outweigh this. I have nothing against ret pallies in dungeons.
Considering i said exactly the same thing ,the only extension I had to the matter is that the arithmetic in raids is no different, just harder because of Holy pallies. I also stated what I intend to do in classic - healbot my way to PvP gear semi casually.
I also extended it to say that anyone not taking a Ret under 50 because of their slow DPS is frankly deluding themselves for reasons I have explained at length.
You can and should heal in raids but people should appreciate that frankly paladin healing is awful and that if you want your PvP two hander you should be getting it.
With just Onyxia and MC out I wouldnât worry to much about raid meta yet anyway. Paladins buffs can be applied raid wide, so just by the blessings it is difficult to justify more then 4 maybe at most 6 paladins from a efficiency stand point in a full 40 man raid. In this situation, yes it becomes difficult to justify ret over holy. The full 40 man raid however is a fiction right now.
Even PUGs usually stay at 30 to hand out more loot per person and progress oriented guilds simply split down to 20 manning. I donât know if that is a alliance specific thing but I couldnât believe it myself as onyxia was dead in the second attempt with 29 random people.
This means generally more paladins per raidslot as 4 are almost always useful + at least atm on my server paladins seems to be less common then back in the old days. Now you could require that those 4 paladins heal. But then youâve got a severe lack of hots and raid heal to go around. So here amusingly a retribution paladin might gets his chance. Especially if of course all your druids/priests should be in their heal specc too.
Also I get the feeling that paladins now seem to be less common then they where back in the day. Almost contrary to warriors. That fury was good scaling dps with threat issues was always known. The problem was that if your guild had 6 warriors you better use them as tanks. Now? If I where to /yell in IF âNeed 32 fury warriors for Ony PUGâ I get 60 replies.
Back when wow was released people didnt know what a mechanically good class was. Paladins in wow classic are mechanically useless, but attract certain types of player.
I reckon people arent rolling pallies because to really enjoy a paladin you kind of have to do everything.
Also while you would get 60 replies you also get 32 corpses because people are still no better at managing their threat than they were
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