It appears you didn’t read what I said. Most people do not have the capacity nor the desire to make their own raid groups. And even if I had to make a group, I wouldn’t set fair rules because I might as well just exploit people
You also said the following:
If you implement personal loot, you take away people’s ability to HR items. Great right, that’s exactly what you want?
But you yourself wouldn’t be willing to lead a raid that you yourself wouldn’t get anything out of, so why would anybody else?
Why would anybody go out of their way to create a group or random strangers to run content with when they get the exact same reward was the people that just join and mostly afk their way through the raid?
Implementing personal loot worked inr etail because of LFR, where nobody had to create or lead the raid. In this game mode? Sure, you won’t see hundreds of ‘LFM X raid, X item HR!’, but you’ll also see a huge decline in people looking for raids at all.
Pick your poison, I guess.
There is a small % of natural leaders in the population, leading others is an incentive in itself for them. So there will always be people who will want to organize and lead even if there’s nothing extra in it.
There isn’t really any contradiction
Those people are guild leaders.
Yeah, but not only, also raid leaders in bigger guilds and some others. What’s your point?
My point is that there isn’t any need to grant them the ability to HR for doing what they already like doing anyway
Except you’re wrong.
Some of the raid leaders in my guild used to lead pugs when they wanted a specific item (usually bindings), without chasing bindings they saw absolutely no reason to lead pugs and as such, they don’t.
People that enjoy leading raids don’t pug unless they’re getting something out of it. Forced personally loot isn’t going to give you the result you think it is.
Your statement implies that for these people leading the raid in itself is enjoyable
Therefore, they already get something extra out of it by default and should not be entitled to an even further incentive, especially since it comes at the expense of others
Have you ever met a raid leader that enjoys leading pugs? In my two decades of this game, I haven’t. Creating and leading pugs is tedius, it is not the same as leading raids of people you know.
What a stupid statement, did you even bother thinking this through before typing it?
Bakers get jobs as bakers because they enjoy baking. By your logic, we stop paying them.
And HR’ing an item doesn’t come at the expense of anyone. If you want that one single super contested item you put extra effort into getting it over the half a million other people that want it.
Forced personal loot isn’t going to make life easier for you, it will significantly reduce the number of pugs; whilst also making life tougher for guilds.
Very stupid analogy. Bakers need payment because they need to feed their families. I am fairly certain that if a baker didn’t have to worry about money and truly enjoyed baking then he would do it without any extra incentives.
Now this is just trolling. If you HR an item then everyone else who would like to get it cannot get it. Every HR is someone being deprived of a chance to get an item they want
I’m sure they would, and their friends and family would love them for it.
But random people (I.E. pugs) wouldn’t benefit. I enjoy art, I make things out of wire; all of which I’ve given away for free. To people important to me, not randos on the street.
No, it isn’t.
One person HR’ing an item in one run doesn’t make that item no longer obtainable for everybody ever, just form that run. Want your bindings? Join a different run.
In that run.
If they don’t like it, they join a different run. If that item is SO important to them, they put the effort into making their own run and HR’ing it themselves.
If you enforced personal loot, you don’t get more pugs. You get less pugs.
Let us say I want Stormwrath. It means I need to find group where Stormwrath isn’t reserved. Looking for a specific group that satisfies certain requirement is already an inconvenience I would rather not have.
The problem is that even in a group where SW is not reserved it still comes at my expense, because all casters want SW and they will look for a group with no HR on SW, thereby lowering my chances of getting one due to the elevated concentration of casters in that group.
This is an inevitable conseqence of any shared loot system. Every time someone gets an item, someone else doesn’t.
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Perfectly explained
I’ve had this happen several times without personal loot… It’s nothing unique to PL, even with PL you may still be able to get something if someone has a drop they don’t need.
I’m tired of all this HR on everything.
Which doesn’t change with personal loot.
The only thing that changes with personal loot is that raids that require leadership (so not Thunderaan) lose interest because people aren’t going to want to lead them.
You’ll get exactly what you want, a few groups without HR; but it’ll come at the cost of screwing guilds over and reducing the amount of pugs. This is why forced personnal loot was discontinued in retail.
Depends on the drop. If the game determines that the item has a higher ilvl than yours, it’s soulbound and you can’t trade it.
Personnal loot is not a good system. The only reason it was able to be incorperated into retail was because of randomised groups; and even then it was discontinued for raids.
You are both more than welcome to show me the math behind ‘less incentive to create and lead raid = more people creating and leading raids’.
I’m not even arguing that.
You’ve chosen to completely ignore my initial point and strawman me without being able to disprove the positive points I make about the implication of PL.
You haven’t addressed my point in making loot personal, the process of making groups and waiting for the last dps/heal/tank will be sped up when those who are after 1-2 specific items are now willing to join since they’re neither competing with others, or having said items locked behind HR.
You just want to continue HR’ing items and having people work for you to get the items you want. which I understand, cuz that’s the way it works atm
I have in this thread explained why forced personal loot is bad.
People create and lead pugs solely for the purpose of HR’ing a specific item, Fox mentioned this too. Without this incentive, Fox said he wouldn’t create or lead a pug; nor would most other people.
Without this incentive, you’re going to lose a lot of pugs.
What point are you trying to make? That it’ll be faster to fill groups? Sure, because there will be more people looking to JOIN pugs than there will people trying to CREATE them. Instead of having 7 rooms waiting for 20 people each to fill them up, you’ll have 2 rooms with a queue of 100 trying to get in.
What’s your solution to that problem? Demand LFR? Oddly enough, LFR doesn’t even use personal loot any more either; that’s gone back to a roll system.
I’m an officer of a raid team, we run with a loot council system. Forced personal loot screws with our progression.
I don’t care what happens to pugs, Blizzard catering so hard to pugs is why the modern game ended up the way it did.
7 rooms which the leader has locked the door to multiple people(HR), trying to find 20 people who have their own key (don’t need the HR items)
or
Multiple rooms where everyone has a key to the door.
Your innuendo literally describes gate keeping, which is what is happening now.
Who said there would be a lack of groups? Where is this evidenced?
The only reason there are groups running atm is because people are forced to run their own and put HR, otherwise they won’t get an invite, or the item they need. maybe a bit hyperbolic but still
How many times do you see ‘no melee’ or ‘no casters’, that is because there is too much competition on the loot. Thus, hindering the group making process.
I want to see groups for everything available all the time, in good time.
I dunno… I get a lot of people like it the way it is, but it would be nice to see it tried in a seasonal realm.
The door isn’t locked, the door is open but some people don’t want what’s on offer. Perhaps the bar doesn’t serve the specific drink you want.
Except there aren’t multiple rooms. There’s barely any because creating more rooms is up to the people. Fox wouldn’t create a pug himself, you won’t create a pug yourself, I won’t create a pug myself. Why would anybody else?
You say gatekeeping like it’s a bad thing.
Me, I did.
The evidence is common sense. If the aforementioned people wouldn’t bother creating a pug unless they can HR the one specific item that they’re running that raid for, why would anybody else?
Creating and leading pugs isn’t fun, there’s probably less than a handful of people that enjoy it.
But you wont, because people wont have incentive to create groups.
Again, you ALL have the option to create a group right now without using HR. You have the option to make the change that you want to see. Fox refused, so will you.
You want the same reward for joining a raid as the person that’s put their time into creating and organising that raid. And it’s okay to want that, but the odds of getting it? None.
more loot = screws his progression 
that was quite evident ^^
and before you resort to further mental gymnastics just pointing out again the key to PL is the loot being tradeable
Organizing pugs is straight up annoying. Hands down.
If they force PL, ill stop hosting any pug (except dungeons for xp) and just stick with guildruns.
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