Nobel Tauren, come and stay in Suramar with us
Then, when the opportunity opens, leave with us, to form a new… Coalition without invading green aliens or disgusting undeads or those little impish green creatures who tend to blow up themselves and others!
Tauren-Shal’Dorei-Sin’Dorei alliance would be a force to be reckoned with!
Maybe the Trolls could join, they are an ancient people, not without flaws, but we have our own…
Seriously don’t torture your noble soul over picking side. An undead “Lich Queen” or an old Orc living in the never existed glorious past…
Neither
Just… just come to us, Suramar will welcome you with open arms
Wait in our glorious city the storm’s end, far away of the bloodshed and insanity of the Battles for Azeroth…
Illidan would know that tough choices must be made in order to win in the long run, something Saurfang is unable to see. He sees the current actions as they are with no eye for the larger picture, which is why anyone side with him at all.
But I don’t understand ehy you just pick her because her noble actions in the past. I saw this Sylvanas never again after her death so I wouldn’t follow her for that argument. You have to be a blind (hehe DH) fool to follow her because of this. Do you see the parallels between Darkshore and Quel’thalas? She becomes what she hates.
The point is that she is willing to make tough sacrifices for her people, which is now the same for the whole of the Horde. Her end-goal may seem selfish to many of you, but I see it as her simply being capable to make the tough choices to secure the future of the Horde that no other Horde leader would. Most of the other race leaders of the Horde would sooner bow to the Alliance than make the choices Sylvanas has made, and it is for that reason that I believe that a Horde under Sylvanas will be a Horde for the better (in the future). It’s actually quite simple, and I never claimed she is noble. There is no doubt she is both cruel and temperamental, but I would much rather have that than a Warchief who acts more on the basis of honour than on calculated decisions.
The stupid thing is that all of Sylvanas actions arent really safe. She hopes that the probability would happen. I stay with Saurfang. I prefer to die if I have to live in such Horde that Sylvanas build.
Her “experiments”
The Blight 2.1 (and improving)
The whole “I don’t want the Forsaken die out” thing - wich itself kinda stupid if you consider, she was rised against her will and the whole point of ending the Scurge and its long shadow would be to let the undead gone, not repopulate the world with corpses… and using the Lich King’s methods
For some reason, all of these actions are screaming of a scheming Dread Lord… not the hero ranger’s, the victim of Arthas cruelty, who she once was
After her death, maybe the thing came back and now in her body is not Sylvanas… would make sense actually.
Gul’dan almost pulled this trick with Illidan’s body and Sargeras’ fraction of power, so we knew it is possible, and at this point the only thing that could save the Horde’s Honor is the thing, their Warchief - appointed by a FEL POISONED dying Troll from his death bed/throne - was a pretender, and the Real Sylvanas is in a soulstone, waiting to be freed…
But alas, I think she is Sylvanas, the real McCoy… and the slow deterointation of the undead mind and soul finnaly consumed her sanity and the world would be better without the Lich Queen…
But only my two copper… nothing more
Actually, burning Teldrassil was never her initial goal. This is all covered in A Good War, but which quickly summarised, goes something like this:
Saurfang agreed with Sylvanas that Orgrimmar was weakened and that if the Alliance attacked now, they would easily win.
Saurfang was tasked with planning most of the Horde offensive, including blitzing their way up to Teldrassil and capturing it.
Part of the plan is also to break the Alliance (specifically the Night elves’) spirit by defeating Malfurion and/or Tyrande as they are basically considered borderline gods.
Saurfang fails by throwing an axe in Malfurion’s back, regretting this because of his “honour”, and surrenders.
Because of this, Sylvanas decides that the only way to prevent the Alliance from rallying and seeing this day as a miracle is by ordering to burn the tree.
TL;DR: Saurfang planned everything up until the capture of Teldrassil but failed to strike the final blow because of a lapse in his “honour”, which ultimately led to Sylvanas’ order to burn the tree to prevent the Alliance from rallying massively from this “miracle”. It was a tough choice, but without it an immediate counter-attack on Orgrimmar would have been imminent and the Horde would have been broken.
Sylvanas’ plan? Yes. Saurfang’s? Debatable, Sylvanas doesn’t explain it like this to him and he never refers to it before his moment of realisation when Sylvanas burns the tree.
Saurfang’s plan refers to stopping them from ruining the invasion, not to killing them for demoraisation.
He doesn’t surrender. He hesitates for minutes, then Tyrande appears and takes the choice out of his hands, by freezing him with a spell and then leaving him the choice of dying or retreating.
Pretty much this! Its a shame they forced you Hordies in this position, but atleast you guys get a choice even if its between the two worst possible candidates around(and we all know the choice won’t matter in the end) :<
Sylvanas is the one at fault here. She failed to stress the importance of killing Malfurion to Saurfang, as he was under the aprpehension that Teldrassil was the only goal and that it did not matter who lead the Night Elves after its capture, something she reinforced by not killing Malfurion when she had the chance.
Burning Teldrassil was her fault alone. It is ridiculous to say an immediate counter-attack on Orgrimmar would have been the result. There is no logical reason why Malfurion suviving=>Alliance attack Orgrimmar immediatly. Complete non sequiter and it was never a reason Sylvanas used anyway. And even if this were true, she could just as easily have prevented it by capturing Teldrassil and holding people hostage warding off the Alliance attack. Besides the fact that she should logically have expected all the neutral nations to turn on her due to carrying out genocide, something she only avoided due to her irrational plot armor.
Actually, A Good War makes it pretty clear that Sylvanas and Saurfang discussed Malfurion and Tyrande for days, and how they were the only thing that would possibly stop them from capturing Darnassus.
Yes. And a defeated Malfurion is one who cannot stop them from caputuring Darnassus. He doesn’t have to be dead, just like Tyrande doesn’t have to be dead for that to happen. Malfurion was defeated, Darnassus was rife for the taking, Saurfang’s main objective was fulfilled.
But you claimed that Saurfang was in on the plan to break the Alliance’s spirit, not that something had to be done about the elven leaders. And I don’t see the evidence for that. And this seems to be a crucial part of your argument.
Capturing and holding Darnassus hostage was the goal planned in advance by Sylvanas, Saurfang and Nathanos. The burning of the tree was never part of the plan, but rather a reactive decision. The other thing to remember is that Darnassus is the Alliance’s seat of power in Kalimdor just as the Undercity was for the Horde in the Eastern Kingdoms. An all-out attack on Orgrimmar is a lot more complicated without Darnassus as their launch point or even with the full force of the Night Elves on their side as they will still be working to rebuild their land.
Isn’t it obvious that part of breaking Alliance (or at least Night elven) spirit involves defeating their extremely powerful leaders?
Also, there is no doubt that capturing Darnassus was well within the Horde’s reach, and we haven’t been given any actual insight into Sylvanas’ real decision to burn the tree, but I refuse to believe that it was just due to some temper-tantrum befitting a teenage girl. She had her reasons, and only time will tell us what they were. In the meantime, I stand firmly behind my Warchief.
"And that is how you defeat Stormwind.”
Saurfang was in awe. It was brilliant. Destroying the Alliance wouldn’t take a thousand victories. It would take one. With a single strategic push, the pressure on the Alliance would cripple them for years, just as long as they could not conjure any miracles on the battlefield. “You destroy the Alliance from within. Their military might counts for nothing if their members stand alone. Then we strike peace with the individual nations and carve them away from the Alliance, piece by piece.
“If you want your enemy to bleed to death, you inflict a wound that cannot heal. That is why I need you to make the plan, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “The moment our strike begins, there will be no turning back. We can divide the Alliance only if the war to conquer Darnassus does not unite them against us. That only happens if the Horde wins an honorable victory, and I am not blind—the Horde does not trust me to wage war that way.”
Page 14 A good war. This is when they discuss and when they plan.
Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”
He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike. But she was right.A wound that can never heal.That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it. The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.