Yes. Like Darnassus being captured and the Alliance squabbling about what to do. The plan he talked about with Sylvanas.
Yup. But that isn’t the end of his thoughts at that moment:
That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.
The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.
War would still have come. That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win. Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had.
He essentially realises that his own plan wouldn’t have worked in the long run and that Sylvanas knew this all along and had planned it like this. Or at least it seems like a viable interpretation to me, that doesn’t make either Saurfang or Sylvanas more stupid than they are.
And this quote is my point exactly. Even though they would have captured Darnassus, the Alliance would have rallied. Sylvanas decided that by burning the tree, and later by sacrificing her troops in the Battle for Undercity, she showed the Alliance just how far she is willing to go for the survival of her people, something which will strike fear in most of the Alliance and which in turn will make them hesitant to go on an offensive against her. I’m not convinced the same would happen under Saurfang’s leadership. You will have honourable and dishonourable leaders in both factions throughout time, and for that reason you need to have a leader that acts on more than just a sense of honour like Saurfang does.
So killing thousands of potential hostages and starting a war in which she kills troops she could have easily saved by calling for a retreat shows she goes far to protect her own people?
Like, there is no reason to conclude the Alliance would have rallied and retalated after Malfurion’s survival. That was just Sylvanas assumption, a paranoid fantasy. Just because Sylvanas says it does not mean it is logical.
I am not saying all her decision are just as good, any leader in war will make calls that in hindsight will be considered wrong, but you need someone willing to make those calls nonetheless. My point is just that having someone like Saurfang in charge is great for your moral code, I’m sure, but what happens the day Saurfang faces a dishonourable Alliance leader? Won’t he lose against someone willing to go to further lengths than himself (like Sylvanas), even if those lengths involve the killing of some civilians/hostages?
Yes. So? He would rather see his people die as honorable warriors, than see them becoming monsters willing to do anything (again). You don’t have to share his position, but valuing the short life well lived above a long life of compromising your believes sounds like a viable position to me. And while you may correctly point out that he would be making that decision not only for himself, but for all who follow him… the same could be said about valuing survival over honor. The leader decides one way or another.
They also talked about how Tyrande and Malfurion are going to be the biggest obstacles. So Saurfang knew from the very first moment that they have to deal with them. And yes that means he knew he will have to fight them. And fights end with killing or capturing the enemy. Saurfang didn’t do any of them.
Sylvanas Windrunner took a deep breath and then hissed it out in frustration. “If we have no other options, I will handle them myself.”
Saurfang said nothing for a while. It was a bad idea, but at the moment, it was the best one they had.
Saurfang and Sylvanas had discussed strategy and tactics for days, and it had become clear that there were two huge, inescapable points of failure in their plan: Malfurion Stormrage and Tyrande Whisperwind. The leaders of the night elves were powerful, dangerous, and perhaps even unbeatable on the field of battle. No matter how surprised the kaldorei would be by this attack, those two would be a terror for the Horde once the fighting began. They had lived for so long, and survived so much, that Saurfang had to consider the possibility that they could hold off the Horde long enough for the Alliance to send help. Ashenvale was their land, after all. They would rally nature itself to their cause.
Sylvanas could match one of them—perhaps—but even she knew that taking them on by herself was … not an ideal tactic. Disinformation would not be very useful toward solving the dilemma. What false information could you hand a flock of Alliance spies that would make Darnassus conclude that both of its leaders needed to stay out of the war once it began?
“We wait for an opportunity,” Saurfang muttered. “And if they give us one, we take it.”
Sylvanas agreed.
He realized he failed the plan because the UNSTOPPABLE night elf leaders were still alive as he clearly states when they started planning this. He knew from the very start they have to take Malfurion and Tyrande out of the game. They knew they can’t fight both of them so they split them and baited Tyrande out of the defense. In the end he admits that Malfurion being alive will be seen as a miracle and it will inspire the rest.
He refused to kill a godlike being and the Horde will pay for that in the long run. GG WP High Overlord.
Sylvanas turned back toward the World Tree, watching it burn. Saurfang made himself watch the flames consume city and citizens alike. He would not dishonor himself further by turning away
The screams continued. They reminded him of Shattrath. He had loved the sound, then.
Smoke filled the air, reminding him of Stormwind, of racing through the streets as buildings burned all around him, finding cowering humans and butchering them as they begged for their lives. He had loved the slaughter, then.
And he had loved this war, too, hadn’t he?
Saurfang did not move for hours, not until the screams faded and the flames had burned themselves down to embers. Before him stood a smoking husk that had once been a great civilization. Inside him was a feeling of despair, a feeling of shame. There was no haze of corruption now to soften the horror.
Another excerpt from A Good War. Saurfang himself has done terrible things, far from the “honourable orc” everyone talks about today, but he saw that as a necessity and part of the war back then, just as Sylvanas sees this now. Who knows, maybe Sylvanas has an honourable end goal in mind, or maybe she wants to raise everyone as Forsaken, we really can’t know just yet, but I still feel it’s too early to turn our backs on our Warchief just because some silly orc had a change of heart.
Where does he see this all ending if he does actually manage to overthrow her? Should we just blindly trust that the Alliance won’t attack a weakened Horde after an internal conflict/civil war? I don’t get it.
Not really. Lyana literaly says: Dark Ranger Lyana says: You turned your back on your duty to the Horde, Saurfang. Dark Ranger Lyana says: And worse, after you abandoned your people, you conspired with humans against your warchief. Dark Ranger Lyana says: You will throw down your weapon at once and come with us. Dark Ranger Lyana says: Or you will die here, in the swamp, alone.
And then Saurfang: Zekhan says: Not alone! Varok Saurfang says: I see you still have not learned to fear impossible odds, my young friend. It is an honor to stand at your side. Varok Saurfang says: Enough of your prattling, dark ranger! If you came seeking a fight, you shall have it! Varok Saurfang says: For the honor of the Horde! Lok-tar ogar!
Lyana has orders to take him to the Warchief and explain himself, which seems rather reasonable given we have just had plenty clues hinting at the Alliance helping him escape.
The Bolded part confirms that its Saurfang the one that then decides to pick up a fight, because even if Lyana does say she is willing to kill him, this is contingent to the possibility of him NOT surrendering and coming with them to explain himself.
Or disabling them. I don’t see where this contradicts my point.
…no, he realized that the more important fight was the psychological one, the one he just threw away with giving the Nelves a miracle story. That doesn’t mean he had this on his mind at all when planning the war or when sparing the Malf. It’s a layer he overlooked - but Sylvanas didn’t.
(Again, I’m defending my interpretation as viable, I’m not claiming that it is the only one. But if it is viable, factual statements about Saurfang’s knowledge become debatable - like I said.)
And the whole point of his character is that he regrets it now, that it was a mistake, that he would never do this again and would fight to keep others from making the same mistake again. Yes, Saurfang was a monster. That’s why I said “again”.
Why didn’t Sylvanas kill Malfurion herself then since that was her grand plan instead of leaving it to a known veteran suffering from PTSD and abiding by his own code of honour at the time. If she was so smart why take such a chance?
Also the burning of Teldrassil was a hissy fit cuz she didn’t broke that NElf.
I guess it all essentially comes down to what we all believe individually. I, for one, am absolutely certain that the Horde’s best chance of survival is under the cunning leadership of Sylvanas, even if that means the killing of most of the Alliance. Saurfang’s method would surely be considered morally better, but then again, the Horde is a faction of delinquents and outcasts, so who’s to say that the Horde races will ever be accepted by the Alliance anyway? Even if the boy-king turns out to be be one of the better kings the Alliance has seen for centuries, who’s to say whoever’s next in line after him won’t choose to go in the complete opposite direction and start slaughtering the Horde races again? This is Sylvanas’ point of view, and frankly, it just makes more sense. Eternal peace might be a possibility in the real world, but in the World of Warcraft, it is most likely not.
That would not have taken you long to figure out. Sylvanas believed, rightly so, that she didn’t have the full support of her faction, so she let Saurfang stay in charge of the attack. Sylvanas was not at the front lines, Saurfang was. If he was also the one to kill Malfurion, the Horde races would surely rally behind the combined forces of Sylvanas and High Overlord Saurfang.
You haven’t read much about what happens to an Azerothian when they die, have you?
They end up in the Shadowlands, similar to where what we see when we die in-game, where everything from life is mirrored, and that place is completely different for each individual. For some it is peaceful and tranquil, for others it is a nightmarish hell where they are haunted by their deeds in life, sometimes regardless of whether they were bad or not.
We really haven’t got much of a clue how the Shadowlands work. We know there are quite different sections, we know that beings can create realms for themselves and ascertain that certain spirits go there, and we know that shamans can actually call upon their ancestors. If Orcs, Tauren, and co, believe that you join your ancestors after death that may not be true for everyone, but it seems to be true for enough of them to justify their believe after talking to them. Maybe it only happens if there is already some Shadowrealm infrastructure for your clan in place, but whyever it is, it seems to be there.
I don’t see it as this because you know from the very first second of the war that you have to kill.
The fact that he says Malfurion is almost unstoppable already makes him understand there is no way for the Horde to capture him alive.
He knew from planning that they can’t capture him.
Even after the duel that Malfurion beats the crap out of him, he understand he is still alive because Sylvanas intervened.
So he can’t have the excuse after being right both in theory and in practice that Malfurion is unkillable in straight combat because of my honor.
Even so, why would anyone risk a “short, well-lived life” if there’s even a slight chance of eternal torment waiting for you, and you can choose survival right now?
Actually, Saurfang could have captured him then and there. He thought about it and found captivity under Sylvanas to be a worse fate than a clean death by an undeserving warrior.
No, it isn’t. They have Darnassus in their grasp. If Saurfang thought that was the objective and that Malfu was only an obstacle, leaving him alive wouldn’t hurt the plan he had in mind.
Because these guys don’t have the knowledge the players have and think that the well-lived life ascertains a place with their ancestors?
So, based on that, the Forsaken is not part of this then? Because they have already been through the Shadowlands.
And in addition to that, there is repeated evidence throughout the game of what the afterlife/Shadowlands is really like, through interaction with various spirits (i.e. Tony Two-Tusk and Uuna).