The problem with having morally bankrupt characters is that the story bends to their wills and there is nothing what can be done about it. There is a reason why most of them characters don’t stray that far to the spectrum and that is because the world/society wouldn’t allow that. That is also why most of them are raid-fodder.
Regardless, something being iconic shouldn’t be used for a reason not to be killed off when the story needs it to. And this goes for any character.
Considering how Sylvanas has all the depth of a comic supervillain, perhaps they should try to come up with new villains.
The truth hurts.
I remember haterd that a human commanded the lightforged.
More human portential crap.
I remember people pissed off that a mere shade of xevius could capture malfurion.
I remember people hating seeing tyrande reduce even futher to thropy wife until the very end.
I remember the night elves again losing important people like cenarious and ysera.
I remember greymane forgetting he wanted sylvanas dead and insteast just destroyed a lamp.
The valkyr didnt destroy sylvanas either for what she did.
I remember the nightborne being gifted to the horde because tyrande was mean despite them being helped by both side’s and not needing to join a faction with suraman secured.
I remember velen being constantly told by illidan that he is wrong for believing in his visions.
I remember illidian being the most anoying charater in the entire expension i kept hoping he would be killed off.
I remember the horde and alliance both lacking a presence.
It was mostly just class halls, dalaren and valkyr.
I remember the entire expension as one big: Lets screw over the alliance expension.
The horde wherent present sure.
They also didnt get there longest allies destroyed, there temple attacked, there race reduced to human helpers and last but not least:
Didnt have to deal with andiun.
Uh brigante.
You are talking to me.
I bring up cataclysm every time as evident of horde bais.
The alliance was losing on all fronts.
The horde where destroying alliance land left right and center.
Then came mis of pandaria and we where send to solve a human problem.
We didnt cause your regime change.
The rebelion did.
Up until garrosh betraying voijn the alliance was losing.
Only after the horde attack the horde could we “help” you defeat garrosh.
So blizzard suddenly remember the alliance playerbase has varian pull a fleet out of freaking nowhere, help the horde defeat garrosh and gave them even more land after destroying tharamor.
What is worse is that by both the black dragon kid and varian canculations we could have wiped out the horde at heavy cost.
So we got our second human city nuked, ashenvale invaded and countless of alliance slain.
Our “victory” was helping the horde rebels regain control of orgrimar.
And instead of demanded any form of recompence we give the horde more land.
I know the meta was zone rebalancing but the entire expension pack was horde smashing alliance face in.
Horde feels bad.
Horde blames warchief and alliance give it stuff.
I woudnt call being forced to retreat and sending soldiers to there death to kill a king and a few ships victory.
They didnt even blow up the harbor or try to prevent the zandalari from rebuilding there ships.
Here is how it looks like from an alliance point of view:
We send our troops to die.
We attack zandalari, blow up there ships and leave the city unharmed.
No attempt to destroy the docks, No attempt to set fire to the foodstores or anything that would weaken the zandalari.
Nope just destroy a few ships and kill the king we had no reason to kill.
Ow and to make it worse.
Despite the suiced army the horde was still able to get back to town to threat to destroy the invaders.
Meanwhile the night elves got squashed like a bug, Loderian was a massive loss for the alliance and only jaina ex machina saved us(and stop with the god damm human heroes) and our fist pump moment is us losing more stuff to put the zandalari into the horde.
Get control over ashenvale and darkshore.
Destroy’s the night elven capital.
Meanwhile on the alliance side:
Loses alot of troops in both the war of thorne and the seige of lorderan.
Doesnt get to destroy either.
Doesnt control forsaken land.
Sure she didnt get her objective’s but she still come out on top.
Yeah loderan was scorched earth.
Nobody is argueing that.
We are argueing how we would have lost if not for jaina ex machina.
No anti blight(Despite all you need is gas masks it seems)
No seige tanks or cryochoppers or anything brought by the alliance to take loderian.
Andiun doesnt take the time syvlans is monologing to knock her cold, Spare sourefang, and constantly is talking about how it is all his fault.
Andiun edgy doesnt suit you stop.
And lets not forget how boytoy naranos survived tyranda avatar of elune vengence.
Let me repeat that.
A mere undead ranger and two former scourge minnions where able to survive for more then 2 seconds against the avatar of a freaking goddess.
Meanwhile on the horde side an space ship get brought low by voodoo magic.
The horde loses a few leaders, some right at self pity and get told there evil.
The alliance meanwhile loses lands, troops, leaders and the ability to wage war.
Sure the horde suffers too.
But nowhere near as much as the alliance.
This is why i will keep calling horde bias.
Blizzard is unwilling to hurt the horde but the alliance they have no problem of slaughtering on mass.
That was hated by both side’s.
That expension destroyed any legitmency to the demon blood made me do it excuees the horde had.
It came right after garrosh please stop with the orc’s already hellscream.
And the only “good thing” out of that expension was garrision base building.
It was a bad expension that did nothing but destroy horde lore and force yet more orc’s down our throught.
Examples:
The list goes on …
Cheers.
It’s quite depressing to see how iconic and representative characters that were part of the franchises legacy, are slowly getting replaced by shallow and generic ones, diluted copies that don’t hold a candle to the original cast, or downright memes.
Cairne, Thrall, Voljin, Sylvanas,… the good old days.
Now, we have the spineless damsel, the Cleaving Meme, the Zappyboy Meme, and whatever they do with chandelier puppet and Light-Undead abomination.
Hey man, Orgrimmar is my home and I do not condone what Sylvanas does. Don’t take it out on me and all the other people who live there. That would make you just as bad as her.
You’re recycled WoD trash. You deserved to die.
Lord Illidan would be very disappointed with you.
He’s unworthy, he isn’t a magister to rule the Illidari
So true.
People ask for characters to get killed just because they don’t like them or because they happen to be the opposing faction without thinking of the long term story consequences.
Or because they are unreasonable and evil monsters
Truth may wound with the finesse of a scalpel’s cut, however the tenth Night Elf Pity thread in as many weeks feels more like being flogged by a wet newspaper.
Yes, that was awful. Makes zero sense. To be honest, Lothraxion would have been a far more interesting twist to have been in charge.
Not as many as were annoyed at the ridiculous hybrid showing up in the game again, he, like Jaina is taking on Me’dan levels of stupidity in terms of power level nowadays.
Umm…Neither of whom are Night Elves.
Umm, really? That’s all you took from that? He destroyed her entire -future- The one thing Sylvanas had worked so hard from ever since Arthas’s destruction, Genn was able to utterly shatter with one slam of a fist, showing her how fragile her existence was. And yes, he walked away, what do you expect? The dude had a Black Arrow stuck in his shoulder. I mean, you want to get that sort of shiz looked at, right away…
The Val’kyr work for Sylvanas? Or do you mean the Broken Isles versions? Well, they weren’t exactly in a position to do so, were they, the Champion of the Horde had just utterly smashed their way through them, and Sylvanas had almost broken their goddess/revered spirit to her Will. What were they supposed to do at that point?
I know, right, its almost like imagine if the Lightforged had been gifted to the Alliance for less reason than that, despite them being helped by both sides and not needing to join a faction with Argus secured.
Oh…Wait…
Hot Alliance on Alliance Action there. Definitely a buy in for a Horde player.
I do not know what game you were playing, but it certainly was not World of Warcraft: Legion.
Really? I mean that is a massive victory. What precisely more would you want,to protect those Alliance feelings? I mean the Alliance destroyed the -entire- reason for the Horde to have went to Zandalar, their entire reason for the expansion, and killed a God-King , with no appreciable losses to themselves.
Screaming “Horde Bias!” at every juncture weakens your argument, it does not bolster it, it makes it seem like there is in fact, no argument, just emotive “Woe is me!” arguing…
Ahem. Says the Demon Hunter. (Sorry, couldn’t resist)
But both are very important people for the night elf.
I dont stalk a prey unless i intent to kill it.
His words.
Beside we both know the only reason syvlanas survived that was plot armor.
Genn destroying her future doesnt mean anything.
Her death wouldnt just avange the thousent she killed but it would also prevent her from killing more.
And greymane might be a vengeful worgen but he is not that stupid.
Eyir simply teleported away.
And horde or alliance champion dont exist as far as the story care’s.
Else the alliance champion would have slaughter sylvanas.
And before you say the horde campion woudnt allow it.
That is the entire freaking point.
We can go back and forth about how or godkilling charaters woud have acted.
Eyir is powerful.
Tho with sylvanas random power up these days i am not sure who would be stronger.
Hight mountain tauren.
Joining the faction your race is on is more believeable.
Nightborne unlike both lightforged and high mountain tauren had neither the personality, motivation or single faction issu.
Beside i pointed out those didnt need to join the factions either.
They make more sense but it remains stupid to get involved with the factions these days.
It tents to draw alot of enemies.
Illidian is no more alliance then arthas, saurfang, baine, thrall, kedgar, etc.
Despite horde claiming otherwise.
He is an emo with self esteem issu’s that they used to make one of the more awesome world of warcraft charaters look like a fool for trusting in his visions and the light.
And dont get me started on that winchime they used to turn the light into a force for slavery.
The lore has really gotten horrible.
Likewise i dont know what expension you where playing but it wasnt legion.
So the suiced army isnt a loss?
Beside as i pointed out many times before:
The alliace has lost tharamor, tedrassil, darkshore, ashenvale, more troops then i care to count.
Meanwhile daza’lor barely got scratched.
The death of 1 npc king and loss of a few ships vs Tedrassil, darkshore, ashenvale, invasion of boralis, the loss of many troops via suiced squad and being forced to flee to the returning horde army.
Because you know having the horde having to accauly lose something would hurt those poor horde feeling.
Come back when blizzard start having the alliance destroy your cities and conquer your lands effortlessly and then we can talk about:
Well, sorry but not today. The Story of Sylvanas is not over yet.
I dont stalk a prey unless i intent to kill it.
His words.
Beside we both know the only reason syvlanas survived that was plot armor.
Genn destroying her future doesnt mean anything.
Her death wouldnt just avange the thousent she killed but it would also prevent her from killing more.
And greymane might be a vengeful worgen but he is not that stupid.
Your “plot armor” argument comes right back at you, Sylvanas could have turned Greymane into a porcupine the moment she shot him with the Black Arrow…Greymane even surviving a Black Arrow…plot armor argument comes around.
As for his vengeance, you’re thinking a swift kill would sayisfy a man that had his son die in his arms and his kingdom in ruins?
In his eyes Sylvanas took his future away(his son, his heir and dynasty) and she and the Forsaken destroyed his nation, turning them into refugees.
So, yes he smashed her lamp, and with it her hopes for the future and those of her people. Now That is revenge.
But yes, her death may have spared thousands…maybe Greymane really is a stupid vengeful Worgen after alll…
Stupid phone gives me hard time quoting.
I agree.
No that is just stupid.
She lost 1 lamp and free eyir that for some reason didnt attack sylvanas who was trying to enslave her.
That would be like saying killing a valkyr is revenge for darkshore, ashenvale and tedrassil and the night elves that died.
If he wanted to drag it out he shoud have try and taken her prisoner.
Taunt her and torment her.
You dont let someone like sylvanas walk free.
She will just look for an other way or try again.
Plot induced stupidity works both ways.
She let him walk away after all.
I think we both agree that entire scene makes no sense.
By any logical attempt. Sylvanas should have just shot Genn in the back where he was standing. Eyir was off away either ways. Letting Genn walk away like that was anti climatic.
Why should any character be punished solely for how he or she behaves? If the story makes Sylvanas get away with it, then she can.
Every character deserves a win every once in a while.
I want to kill Jaina. For what she did in Dalaran, and for what she did in Zuldazar.
And she will probably get away with it in an absurder way than Sylvanas.
At least for the latter we’ve had an obvious reaction and repulse for her actions (even amongst her faction colleagues).
Yeah, if the story manages to create a plot in which a character gets away with his actions, then they can do so. Regardless of how irking it is.
People have been forced to swallow other times stuff like that.
So I’d say you cut with the demands. Alliance players certainly have had their share, but Horde players also have been repeatedly forced to ignore and accept people simply getting away with all sorts of stuff. There is a tendency to shove Alliance stuff under the carpet, handwave it, or randomly forget it.
That’s one of the reasons the Horde seems to be always the “aggressive” ones.
Also, the War of Thorns had the Night elves performing rather fine in a 8:1 odds situation. Don’t see the “badly” you are talking about.
Because it would be the kind of stupid route for an overkill, designed only to appease a fragment of the playerbase, and that punished even further another segment that has already been punished on a meta level, with a story that lectures and demonises their actions, and fractures the faction they play to the point it starts killing itself.
That would be an overkill.
How about we have a story about the Horde triumphing and feeling vindicated in their actions for once?
No?
Villain bat again?
Ok.
Then sorry, the Alliance can’t get it better either. You can’t be portrayed as morally righteous AND victorious at the same time.
Not if you are to take into account the fact that there is another chunk of people that are to get the OPPOSITE effect of both adjectives as a result.
Is it? He’s a vengefull father, is it so strange he would want her to suffer, just as he suffers? She took his future, and in return he took hers, he even says so.
Killing her off then would’ve been ashes in his mouth for revenge, it would be over to fast.
But you would take a clean kill, I get that, fair enough, it’s not how Greymane thinks from what we saw there.
About Eyir, I was as suprised as you the first time I saw the cinematic, I thought she would try to step on Sylvanas for sure, she seemed really angry when bound(justifiably so ofcourse).
But we really don’t know much about the Val’kyr, certainly not the ones of the Light, maybe they took oaths or something so they can’t do harm, we only see them protecting and guiding. Or perhaps it’s as simple as ‘Fight or Flight’, either one kicks in in a hostile situation and Eyir being an ancient being of some importance, chose to leg it, because fighting this banshee was not worth the risk.
Actually, here comes the real question in my opinion. Greymane just destroyed what little hope the Forsaken had, and it was shown clearly how pissed off Sylvanas was at that moment…yet, she did just let him walk away instead of riddling him full of holes…why? If we go by certain people’s opinion’s here, she lit a tree on fire full of Night Elves, just because one of them rubbed her the wrong way…why then would she let Greymane just walk out of there after taking this very important opportunity from her?
Is it just inconsistency? Or did she feel sure enough that the Black Arrow alone would kill him off? Why risk that though?
Maybe she didn’t bear him any real grudge over doing what he did, even if she was pissed off about it(Doesn’t make to much sense right now, I know)…or did she let him walk out because she still thought he was needed around for some reason.
Maybe it was just rule of cool…or the fabled plot armor, and the writers thought it wasn’t Greymane’s time to die yet?
So?
Or wait, are we now expected to extend this “You c-can’t hurt the Night Elves” to “Or Anyone they are friends with!”
Yep, and he’s still stalking, or what, did you expect a sudden kill? What is it with Night Elf fans and a lack of patience, I’m starting to think that quest in MoP with Varian and Tyrande was incredibly aptly named.
And the fact that she was the Ranger General of Quel’thalas, not an Alcoholic King who spent the last decade ignoring the world outside of his borders (I love Genn, but I love him because of what he is, not because of what he isn’t. He’s Robby Baratheon without the sense of humour)
What? I mean actually -WHAT-? We already see, in Cataclysm, that her future and the future of her people is -massively- important to her, I mean like crucially so. The destruction of that lantern meant -everything- to her, I mean did you not watch the cinematic?
So you are being honest, you just don’t want other people to have things if you can’t?
That’s not how -Vengeance- works! For goodness sake, do you think Vengeance works by killing a person? That’s a quick Hit. That’s not real Vengeance. vengeance is slowly stripping away everything they hold dear, tearing away their defences, and their hopes for tomorrow, leaving them broken, with nothing. That’s Vengeance. What you are talking about is just a cheap way of keeping ‘score’.
Actually she didn’t teleport, she kind of rose upwards, she was still physically there, just ascending, as you would do, if someone had just been putting the major hurt on you.
Ehhh, they kinda do. They’re just not ‘us’, as in there is a Champion, but we can’t all be it, so nobody is, there still is one, but it isn’t Brigante, and it isn’t Malificus, it is an undefined figure.
So they would effectively cancel each other out. Sounds legit. No, that actually does sound legit.
Undoubtedly, and has also just been wracked and tormented. I think her going “I’m going for a nap” is the sensible thing most entities would do at that point.
Coughs Void Elves.
The LFD make sense, the Void Elves…kind of not very but kind of make sense, the HMT make sense, the Nightborne make sense-ish. So both Factions got one race that makes complete sense, and one race that -kind of- makes sense if you dig beyond the superficial.
His entire story, and we -have- to go through his entire story, whichever faction we play, is all about the Night ELves and the Alliance.
I am -Sick- of Night Elves now, they had so much screen time, and yet are such douchecanoes to their allies, that I am thinking Sylvanas did the world a favour. Even now, after a whole expansion full of them, we’re all “Oooh, Blizz hate Night Elves” “Isn’t it horrible what they did to Night Elves?”
Seriously?
Lemme throw this at you. What tabards were the mobs on the Vindicaar wearing?
Answer that, then tell me it wasn’t Alliance based.
I’m assuming you meant ‘Suicide’ ( That isn’t me mocking your English, if it is your second tongue I heartily doubt that I could type it so well as you do English)
It wasn’t a Suicide army? It never was. The Alliance went in, knowing they had an Ace in the Hole, in the Gnomish bombs on the Golden Armada (Imagine the kick off if the Horde had done that to Boralus’ fleet)
It was emphatically -not- a Suicide army. You don’t do that kind of manoeuvre, It was a commando raid more akin to Dieppe in 1942, it was not a forlorn hope scenario.
Good. That made them equal to the Horde then, or does every race get to have two cities if their name starts with ‘Hu’ and ends with ‘Man’
Theramore was legit, and balanced things.
Yep, and Horde lost Undercity.
Neither of which are lost, both are contested, so…hey, the same as the Horde zones then?
So, hey, same as the Horde then?
Yeah, that massive Horde incursion into Boralus really worked out well, good job we got to kill Jaina’s Mom and destroy their religious focii…Oh, wait a minute…The Horde didn’t, did they…
Grow up.
Why bother? It doesn’t matter even when the Alliance does start destroying Horde stuff, it is somehow never enough for some people “We only invaded one city, destroyed their fleet and killed their king, we took losses! That’s not fair”
Yeah. Sure. Cry me a river.
No but don’t you get it, a reservist army outnumbered 8:1 should totally be able to beat invaders, because…uhh,because…umm, because they re Night Elves! If they don’t win I’m going to the forums and complaining about how Blizzard hate Night Elves, despite it seems not reading any of the source material or quests. Night Elves! Night Elves! NIGHT ELVES!
Gods I am sick to the back teeth of them…