Please nerf Divine Aegis and Holy Radiance

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
1

Logs demonstrate how these two spells are being abused.

Holy Radiance heals for way too much in combination with Illuminated Healing. Paladins are top HPS in almost all boss fights with Holy Radiance spams. The spell needs to be on a CD e.g. 3 seconds. The old patch change that removed the 6 second CD was wrong.

Divine Aegis stacking by spamming PoH is also helping Disc Priests to top HPS meters. The effect stacks for way too high and Disc Priests should not be both excellent tank and raid healers.

Cata healer balance was supposed to be an improvement over Wrath but it’s quickly turning into Wrath 2.0. This not fun for the other healer classes.

2

Wow so you somehow have so many fights where people just stuck tightly? And Paladin’s that somehow take the drain from Holy Radiance on the chin so well they can spam it and don’t fall off till the boss die? Interesting but also not that likely with t11 boss fights profile.

3

Based on wow logs:

Conclave - 93 of the top 100 players in HPS are Holy Paladins
Al Akir - 95 of the top 100 players in HPS are Holy Paladins
Omnotron - 86 Holy Paladins
Magmaw - 83 Holy Paladins
Atramedes - 74 Holy Paladins
Maloriak - 83 Holy Paladins
Theralion - 73 Holy Paladins
Council - 85 Holy Paladins
Chogall - 75 Holy Paladins
Sinestra - 93 Holy Paladins

This is not balanced.

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4

First off, healing rank logs are irrelevant, top 100 logs are 9/10 times cheesed by having people intentionally take extra damage for the healers to get higher rank.

They dont say that paladins are insanely OP, but that paladins are strong enough for most guilds to bring one, and for the rank chasers to play one.

Do you have anything other than cheesed logs to help your argument?

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5

I very much doubt that you examined 840 logs even on a sample basis and concluded that they are cheese logs. If Holy Paladins were not unbalanced you would see a balanced diversity of all healer classes in the top HPS for the boss fights. But you don’t. Holy Paladins are overrepresented.

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6

Again they’re popular choice. That will mean there are more of them and that a skilled players willing to top the ranks will pick them. Now the deal is that Holy Radiance is the only tool pushing Paladins ahead due to overall ST healing inefficiency. Important thing is that for Holy Radiance to even work the raid needs to be stacked. The radius for that spell is measly 10y and you need to hit up at least 4-5 players for it to even be effective. Even then it’s extremely unlikely you’d be able to spam that with it’s hefty cost.

All I can read from those infos you gave is that raids were very suited to playing into Holy Radiance’s strength. Which is interesting since many of them require a raid to disperse. Conclave splits your raid into 3 groups until you go to murder Nezir. Al’akir makes sense since past Phase 1 you stick in a nice tight group.

And yes Paladins are popular. People know exactly where they’ll end up with Phase 3 and 4 and they will use them. And that will naturally generate an influx of high places taken by that class.

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7

Top Halfus dps logs are cheesed by letting a few dps do all the dmg on him when hes debuffed and everyone else grey parses.

Top 1000 is prob more accurate representation.

Top 100 is pretty much only people who purely goes for whatever makes them parse higher. And ignoring mechanics etc. Getting all the buffs and things like that.

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8

Again, based on data there are 189215 individual logs for healers. Of which 63207 are Holy Paladins, that is a 33.4%. So we should expect Holy Paladins to be around that number when you look at healing output. But they are often two or three times as many. Additionally, if they did not have that overpowered healing output, they would not be overrepresented even on stacked situations. And finally, data shows that their max healing score is 148.89 compared to the second healer who is the druid at 125.19.

I’m not going to look at 1000 people per boss. I can give you 300. The picture changes little. Holy Paladins remain overrepresented.

9

Gonna assume you’re looking only at 25-man Heroic runs right? As in domain of large and organized guilds that will do everything they can to push their numbers up? Based on that data and the amount of logs we can easily assume there’s at least one Holy Paladin per formed raid. That gives them more opportunities. Interestingly their performance really varies between raid size (more often leading at 25 than 10 man ones) and difficulty. As well as Item levels.

10

why do you care about healing parses so much lmao. you get parse if raid gets heavy damage or stand in fire.
Then there are people who want every innervate / power infusion and dark intent just to get rank which is irrevelant
There are chinese who even wipe 1000 times so one person can get rank 1 heal

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11

I havent examined a single one, but healing logs in general is notoriously known for being cheesed for all of classic, and probably even on retail.

Thats why healing RANKINGS are completly irrelevant to healer power, and even if they werent cheesed, healer rankings does a horrible job at gauging healer strenght in general.
Since they only count pure hps, and not utility like raid CD’s and for instance, disc priest absorb are not insanely good because of its HPS capability, but because they can prevent deaths by giving players a higher max health prior to taking damage.

Are paladins strong? absolutely.
Are they so strong that you cannot be competitive without one? Nope

Overrepresented does not equal overpowered. Even if classes were 100% balanced, you would never get a balanced diversity, simply because of some classes being more popular than others in general, for reason that are not related to their power.
However, being in classic, we know the class power, so quite a lot of players will pick the stronger class/spec, even if the 2nd best is almost identical.

What i do believe is the reason for the overrepresentation though, is that in wotlk, paladins and disc priests were miles ahead of the other healers, so the current class representation is probably more due to people sticking with their mains from wotlk.

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12

Yes this is based on 25man. I do not agree that for the top 300 healers by output, their guilds will do anything to push their numbers up in 25man. These teams always have at least 1 disc priest as well. So the opportunities are the same.

For 10man, there are 146420 healer logs of which 34% are Holy Paladins and Disc Priests are 32.5%. HPS is more balanced and diverse for 10man. Fewer people to heal.

This is not about parsing. This is about healing output. If the Holy Paladins were not overpowered, then their healing output would not differ much from the other healers. But it does.

Ok thanks.

Holy Paladins make up a third of all healer players but they are 70-90% of top hps in the vast majority of bosses means that they are overpowered. If they were not, they would represent around 30-40% of top healing output. There are boss fights were one class generally dominates like Halfus where Disc dominate and Chimaeron where Restoshamans dominate. This means that these healer classes are able to take advantage of niche situations that cater to their strengths. But Holy Paladins dominate in all the other fights. Are we to believe that all these fights favour the strengths of Holy Paladins? I find it hard to believe.

13

People will do a lot to up their parses and most guilds that are capable of running full party 25 HCs are competitive because from their perspective that’s really all there’s left to do for them. What interests me is a layout of gear. In ilvl Brackets where Paladins reign supreme they easily make for 50% of all healers. It’s lower ilvls where other classes show up more often.

14

Yes there are parse focused guilds. But again I am hard pressed to believe that mainly Holy Paladins seem to be the most effective in persuading their guilds to let them parse.

Let’s look at it differently, if most of the guilds want to parse, why are Holy Paladins preferred in those situations? That is, if guilds are putting themselves in situations where they take high dmg, why is it that the Holy Paladins are able to pump so much healing to offset it? Logically speaking, other healers would also be able to pump as much hps. But this is not the case. Or one can say, that guilds go for such parse runs (taking extra dmg) precisely because Holy Paladins can pump so much healing.

Putting Holy Radiance on a CD (it had one until patch 4.3.0 i.e. late Cata) will not harm Holy Paladins to such a degree that they will become underpowered.

15

I can’t objectively judge since I still gear up an didn’t made it into any raid on CATA yet.

Is it really such huge problem though, that Holy Radiance perform good in one very specific situation where the whole raid is stacked within 10yd distance?

AFAIK, Holy Radiance perform worst of all the AoE heal in standard situations, compared to Light of Dawn or Divine Hymn and Tranquility, and get boosted only for short time when you stack all the haste buffs together.

If you are calling for raid log justice, it might be better solution to boost other healers rather than nerfing Holy Radiance.

That is unless even heroic raids are already so easy, that healers can go AFK for half of the time if they don’t care about parsing, which I don’t think is the case.

16

This is what you wanna look at, screw the “top” logs.
classic.warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/1023#metric=hps Heroic 25man
classic.warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/1023#metric=hps&size=10 Heroic 10man
classic.warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/1023#metric=hps&difficulty=3 Normal 25man
classic.warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/1023#metric=hps&difficulty=3&size=10 Normal 10man

Surprisingly 10man N Holy pala dip alot below the others.

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17

That is what I was looking at in my post here: Please nerf Divine Aegis and Holy Radiance - #8 by Kovalos-nethergarde-keep

To analyse what you provide:

Please make sure you agree with the numbers I have copied from the website and my calculations for the average. Maybe I have some different setting.

10 man Normal, median scores and max:
Holy Paladin: 75.93 and 150.84
Holy Priest: 76.71 and 136.43
Disc Priest: 75.79 and 141.90
Restodruid: 80.30 and 149.73
Restoshaman: 73.42 and 134.26
Numerical average: 76.43 and 142.32.

Median: Restodruids top by a margin of 4 points to the average. Restoshamans bottom by 3 points to the average.
Max: Holy Paladins and Restodruids outperform everyone significantly by around 8 points to the average.

10man Heroic, median scores and max:
Holy Paladin: 84.13 and 127.89
Holy Priest: 74.30 and 111.23
Disc Priest: 78.08 and 121.98
Restodruid: 81.91 and 126.19
Restoshaman: 73.10 and 116.91
Average: 78.30 and 120.84.

Median: Holy Paladins outperform the average by 6 points. Top median.
Max: Holy Paladins outperform the average by 7 points. Top max.

25man Normal, median scores and max:
Holy Paladin: 76.20 and 167.70
Holy Priest: 73.95 and 131.84
Disc Priest: 73.27 and 139.32
Restodruid: 72.22 and 146.69
Restoshaman: 70.52 and 147.53
Average: 73.23 and 146.62

Median: Paladins at top by 3 points.
Max: Paladins top, by 21 points (!).

25man Heroic, median scores and max:
Holy Paladin: 82.26 and 148.31
Holy Priest: 71.77 and 107.52
Disc Priest: 71.29 and 124.09
Restodruid: 71.57 and 124.27
Restoshaman: 70.52 and 113.22
Average: 73.48 and 123.48

Median: Holy Paladins top by 9 points.
Max: Holy Paladins top by 25 points (!).

It’s pretty clear. Holy Paladins are overperforming.

Should other classes be buffed? Yes. Restoshamans and Holy Priests for sure.

Will Blizzard do anything about it? Probably not.

18

They ain’t nerfing anything and they said no nerfs will be done unless they are related to bugs.

Blizzard stated the only thing they are open to is buffing underperforming specs. Unless one of the healers are completely trash no buffs will be given.

Just accept Holy will be top META Healer in Raiding. Level one but don’t complain.

Everybody knew Fire Mage and Unholy was gonna be miles ahead of the other DPS but they ain’t ever gonna nerf them, I just expect the button 1 or 2 PvE specs will get buffed in Firelands.

19

I have a right to express my opinion and I will do it. You don’t get to tell me what to do. Not sorry.

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20

You indeed have right to express your opinion, but so far you have attitude in manner of:

I can’t be wrong, because everyone else is wrong, and you have to agree with what I’m saying, because raid logs show these and these numbers.