Please sort M+ PUG/Meta classes

Damn…
This hoooman munk is really angry :rofl:

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Yeah there is nothing wrong with warrior. I play also with a warrior in my group.

Parses are i think not individual. You just get a score based on keylevel and time. And since you do higher keys than the average player (by benched me, most runs are done on +10 or even lower), you get ‘high parses’.

Example;
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/argent-dawn/psjohly?zone=25&new=true#boss=12286

OP all i can say is that i feel your pain and you are absolutely right.

All these braindead people coming up with solutions like pushing your own key, communities friends guildies, they are completely missing the point. Their solution to ‘pugging is a problem for some specs’ is ‘stop pugging’. The pinnacle of stupidity, and no real solution to the pugging issue.

Some specs are dead in the current meta. If you are melee you’re already disadvantaged. If you’re a warr or retri pala, you’re right at the bottom of the barrel.

The problem is twofold. First, mechanical, the instances and affixes are designed to favor ranged. This can only be fixed by the devs. The second issue is with player perception. You’re likely better on your warr than most boomies or mages, but people think they need those classes to time the key. This can’t really be changed, and it’s a game of ping pong. Say they give warrs an aoe silence, suddenly they get the boomie spot. Then boomies complain they don’t get invited, they get something else. So on and so forth.

Truth is they can never get it completely right. Some classes will always be above others.

The only way to ‘fix’ this is the controversial matchmaking system, akin to a moba. You select some parameters like ilvl, rio, and queue. The team comp you get is the one you gotta push with, essentially, try and do the best you can with what you have.
This comes with many issues, and people would rightfully complain, but it’s the only way to ensure a random distribution

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But my group has a dps warrior and a paladin :thinking:

Lol now I would love this to be the case when the titles of keys are literally “Boomie/Mage/Hunter” or I get a whisper saying “Ok Mr. Warrior, poor dps” when we are literally an A tier class this week xD

What solution can you provide OP which may actually work?
Nerf current meta classes(or vise versa and buff non-meta classes?) = Will just cause a rotation in the meta selection. The meta wont go away. Simply the “actors will be changed”. As long as class A is at least 0.00000000005% better than class B then its already the new “meta”.

Force people to invite class X or class Y. I want to actually see how will Blizzard “force” me to pick somebody I dont want to my own made party. And how will they enforce this “rule”? Every party setup need to be confirmed by a GM? Aight. Sign up for my M+15 whatever. If we are lucky, we might get confirmed in April! :smiley:

All in all. There is no viable solution. If somebody wants to blindly follow meta. he will do so. Same as if I want to invite 4 paladins to a +15 with tornados. Sure…99% the setup will fail. But there is no rule which stops me from doing it :smiley:
So Blizz pretty much needs to invent a mind control machine to make me invite somebody I dont want to.

So we only got the old fashion (troll, elitist…whatever you want to call it) solution available to us:

Unfortunately that system wont work or will become baren and barely used. Pardon my french of course. But no tank or healer will ever signup to a random +15 run or whatever…without any idea what he will get. He/she could get 3 dps-clowns regardless of their io level or whatever.

Fundamentally m+(higher end especially), raids, rPvP are the endgame. Blizzard has NO obligation to make sure you do that. How you do them is up to you. Friends,guilds, communities or play the rough world of pugging. Thats up to you.
LFR, LFG for normal and hc. Sure. Keep the LFG/LFR system there so even the most casual John can get hand-held and lead into that raid or dungeon so he can see the story and so forth. But there should be no hand-holding and guiding into the end-game.

A brilliant response and I really appreciate the honesty/understanding. I’m just politely trying to have a debate and like you say I don’t want aspects of the game to be removed or anyone feel like they have to reroll, just some fixes would be great!

I really liked the idea of drums etc being near equivalent to that of the classes who have lust. It would add a hint of benefit to the classes without… Something like that could be a great work around…

But even then you dont know the setup they are going with , remember its not just damage that matters, what does a warrior bring other than battle shout ? Nothing , no immunities no hard cc no aoe stun and I am not trying to piss on you here I get it entirely but sadly the reality is it is very much pot luck of getting in, persistence is key and dont let it get to you, blizzard cannot fix this problem unless they make all classes equal footing on utility which they wont do

Realistically though I see you’ve done some impressive keys, despite your 1300 IO your 213 ilvl probably has a part to play in getting invited to anything over a like 12 in pugs. As where there’s you, 1300 at 213 there’s 15 guys with 1k+ with 215-220 in the que.

What would you pick? Both are obviously over qualified for anything below a 15 so why would you take the lower ilvl guy. Fact is , the ilvl probably doesn’t even effect the chart much. But its an issue with the mentality of the players that ilvl = more dps when you could be optimum statwise. No5hing will ever fix this imo

Honestly I have no idea, if i dedicated full time and conscious to the game then maybe I would but I doubt it would be heard/acted on if I did have a resolution haha…

It’s a shame when I know there are plenty of people out there whose RIO is a lie and they’ve only managed to achieve it through playing a meta class/spec or whatever… It’s gutting… I completely understand your points though, it’s such a tough one to try and fix

@dreamcatchin @titchy - Totally understand this and thank you for the compliments… I think my “fix this” type attitude was probably wrong but damn im really not enjoying the game at the moment, which is a shame because Shadowlands is so bl**dy good - imo.

I definitely agree with you that the power differences some classes bring over others is really out of balance looking at you rogues and druids compared to other classes it really doesnt seem fair at all. Then you enter the debate of class identity/fantasy I guess but agree with you entirely about it being an unfair situation

Since when is resto druid meta in SL?

But then, I have no issues with either of my alts either, most of which aren’t meta. To be honest, the only meta class + spec I actively play is VDH. Surprisingly, I have the most “trouble” finding groups on that, because everyone who plays tank switched to VDH, so there’s a bit of overabundance of the spec. :stuck_out_tongue:

…as resto, yeah, right. =)

Add even more people to your list then.

Like I said, I have 0 issues getting into keys in any alt, regardless of class and spec (including a fury warrior). I started building a network at the start of SL, it doesn’t even take a lot of time.

Eh? What? The vault will reward you with options based on your highest, 4th highest, and 10th highest key. If you ran a 14, and helped a friend with a 7, your first option will still be the 14. Yes, if you want the second option to be 14 too, you will need to run 3 more 14s. But you’d need to run that anyway.

If you help someone out, it doesn’t affect your vault in any negative way. The only thing you “loose” is time spent in that key. That’s all.

The only solution to remove meta comps in games would be giving every single class the same toolkit, same damage, same spells with different visuals. Which sounds absolutely horrible and will never happen. And since it will never happen, there will be meta comps and yes, people will prioritize the best ones even if the difference in x and y class is low.

That’s the truth though, even if you don’t want to hear it. There are like 3-4 meta dps specs right now, so most people are experiencing the same thing you do. If you can’t be bothered to join a community and make friends to do keys with, that’s not Blizzard. Well, people prioritizing meta classes on levels where its irrelevant is already not Blizzard’s fault.

Yet, “push your own keys” is still a dumb af comment.

Let’s say you play a class/spec that struggle to get into M+.

When you push your own keys, you’re in the position of that group leader picking whoever he wants… And most likely you’re going for the meta aswell.

So, “push your own keys” doesn’t solve anything.

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Even the biggest anti-meta is possible in a good premade, but the OP is about pugs. :smiley:

Uncap everyone, or cap everyone.

Also lesson the HUUUUUUUUUUGE gap between meta classes and non-meta classes atm.

Warriors need to spec into their only stun, they have a 1.5 min 0.1 sec disorient ( which mages get + good damge on it + way less cd in dragon breath )

No its not. A perception is made when a class has good dps and utility. Boomy has good dps and bring treants. Mage has ability to combust hard packs. Hunter has good dmg and Also slows that helps kiting.

There is no balance, and as long there is no balance i likely just delete my account, i lost patience they keep going full circle after so many years they still haven’t figured it out and they add even more balance problems now via covenants, and then there is the blood lust monopoly that has returned like what where they thinking…

Could be easily achived by expanding the LFD to M+; would spare everyone the time to form groups manually and would guarantee a fair chance to get into a group to every spec and class. Yes yes, I guess something like MMR would be needed too, since M+ in such a “serious game mode” in comparison to normal and heroic dungeons, but systems like that already exist, hence it shouldn’t be that hard.

I seriously don’t understand why LFD doesn’t work at leats for M0, since that’s nowadays simply what “heroic” was before the introduction of mythic dungeons and aditionally there is now “normal” which is basically an unnecessary mode as soon as you hit max lvl.

A perception is just a view of the community on certain specs, often based on prejudices, misinformation or outdated data.

We see groups below +10 look for meta specs, without thinking why those are meta. That has nothing to do with what classes/specs can or cannot do, just some leader copying MDI setups while those MDI setups are based on the route, size of the pulls, pure efficiency, affixes, perhaps even their potential opponent and group-wide cooldowns.

None of that is relevant for a simple +9 timed run. That’s just copy-paste behaviour.

That [some spec] is often taken doesn’t mean that other specs are not viable. Heck, without being in a group which solidly performs on a 99+ percentile, another spec may be more useful. DH tanks are booming, does that make Guardian unviable? Nope. Yet they only want VDHs.

Frost Mage was deadlast in the Wowhead DPS raid rankings pre-buff, does that still count? Nup, but that perception still stands.