Sorry its just not intuitive for me to use a car to get to my destination faster instead of walking for the next 50 kilometers. /s
Tbh I was adviced since first days when going school to never go into strangers cars 
Your friend then xD Youâre half way and he slows down asks if youâre going into town.
1 Like
Aye, this described situation I could if I trust the owner of the vechile
Im an 40 year old man, I dont just go in any vechile someone offers me a ride, what do they want from me.
Yes, but to what degree is reasonable?
I have only played my Priest this expansion.
But if I want to pick up any of my other alts and play them to the same capability as I play my Priest, how much time do I have to spend learning?
And also, how do I go about learning a new class in the first place?
My point is that this process is not really designed to be a pick-and-play experience. And itâs not easy to get through either. Itâs a try-hard game experience.
You can always settle for a lower level of play, but then whatâs the point of having so many classes and specs if itâs completely overwhelming for the player to try and be competent at more than a single one?
Surely if you have a game with 13 classes and 38 specs and a design that encourages playing multiple characters, then they should be easy to pick up and quick to learn and reasonable to master adequately.
But I donât think thatâs the case.
2 Likes
I think the problem is not that we do not have a power creep, but rather that the floor players start out with, and players who knows how to use said power boost is much bigger than it use to be in the past.
If your group of 630+ DPS can only push out 1 million DPS each you have less room to make mistakes in a key. In that gear level though if you go in with DPS who do a baseline of 1.6 million DPS and up you will see that even with mistakes and wipes you will still comfortably time keys.
The DPS output between an average and a good player is massive. It is because the DPS requirements start to become tight in a 10 if your DPS does not meet a certain level, and if neither of your healer or tank pushes out atleast moderate amount of damage.
The bar is simply higher, and there are a lot more that cannot meet the bar currently, or they can just barely meet it. The solution to this should be better learning opportunities to be able to learn your spec.
A lot of people will scoff at it, but the first time we got the squish (I think it was during Legion?) the open world had the perfect setup for it: Killing one enemy solo took a while, two required you to be careful, while pulling 3 or more needed you to be a healer or a tank, or a DPS with good rotational knowledge and CD usage.
2 Likes
You want to be as good on your alt as to be on your main. Thats a you problem. Nearly nobody is capable of that. Even in the World First guilds this is seldom a thing.
You play it and get better by default. You get more used to it. As in every other game.
It is a pick and play experience. Especially in regards of certain spec (BM, Ret and Fury being the prime offenders). You wanting to get âtopâ (emphasis on the quotation marks) performance straight of the bat is delusional.
Even in Vanilla/Classic this isnt a thing. I could go and play classic right now and without a guide or anything of the sort. I can still finish the game (just like one can clear Mythic) but I will be absolutely stomped by someone investing the time to get better and min max stuff. Easy to play, hard to master.
Define competent. Someone that is blue logging can already be considered competent. Even green logs. Arguably gray logs in certain situations. The term âMainâ and âaltsâ exist for a reason. I am not as delusional as to imagine I could play my Mage anywhere close to my Rogue or Paladin. You donât need 90%+ logs to be regarded competent. Even a blue log already makes you better (in terms of output, which doesnt necessarily mean you werent a liability during the encounter) than half of the people that have killed the boss.
They are easy to pick up. WoW isnt rocket science. People always wanting to be the top 1% of whatever is a them problem, and I couldnât give less of a rats about this delusional brain gymnastic.
The ONLY thing we can argue about is that the debuff and buff tracking of the standard Blizzard UI is horrendous and you need UI addons as not to get a brain aneurysm with Blizzards dancing buffs or buffs nobody gives a poop about. Thats about it.
I canât respond when you break my post up into bits and pieces like that.
Thatâs no way to have a conversation.
1 Like
Translation: I donât have an argument. Not that I expected anything of value from you in the first place.
Nah, itâs just that I wrote a post with 9 sentences â and made only a single point â and you broke each of those sentences up and responded with a paragraph for each one, making a separate point for each and posing question and enquiries in the process.
I donât care enough to get into such unraveling discussions, not this time. Sorry.
3 Likes
Its called going into detail and progressing the discussion.
Mhm. Sure. Not like you quoting less and less so you can dip out of conversations where you run out of arguments isnt the norm with you or anything (and not just with me).
The game isnt hard. Its easy to pick up. You wanting to play at a 99% percentage across all your chars is a you problem. Your mind blast example didnt work out at all (pointed out by somebody that isnt even playing the spec).
1 Like
So I downloaded the addon and I gotta say, itâs really made me understand WoW so much better.
Just look at this! So concise and clear.
So I mean - this really helps a lot. The addon author has been totally able to solve the problem and Blizzard can just continue.
The fact that the tooltip runs off the edge of the screen and bugs out, resizing constantly to try to fit and be its correct size - I mean thatâs just details.
This looks EXACTLY like that joke thread I made about a new spell called âArcane Echoesâ last year. Identical.
I will say though, some of the talent descriptions that are included donât actually change the interactions because they just buff damage or lower the CD, but there are so many that are more complex than that, so I think the point stands regardless.
EDIT: Actually doesnât fully explain it! It forgets to mention, for example, that Frostbolt generates Icicles. It has a talent stating that it now can generate two, but the base tooltip never specified that it generates icicles at all, which it should, because it does!
This gameâs a bloody meme to figure out. Ugh Iâm so sick of it.
6 Likes
It doesnât progress the discussion if the other party doesnât feel inclined to partake in the discussion. And it doesnât invite discussion to insinuate bad faith on the other party.
And besides, itâs not progressing the discussion to insist on points that have already been responded to. You say the game isnât hard and itâs easy to pick up. I already made the point that newbies seem to favor Classic, and they struggle plenty with the classes as they are there.
And finally, I havenât implied that any of my points about class design are personal. I am simply making observations about the design and gameplay. On a personal note I havenât played WoW for more than a few hours since early December and Iâm all but set to go on a hiatus when my subscription runs out. And Iâm a filthy casual anyway, so itâs not like my motivation for posting here is that I want to get gud. I couldnât care less.
2 Likes
If people struggle with classes in classic (and I mean the classes, not the rats tail that is everything else that is part of classic, especially Vanilla classic) then the issues lies elsewhere. Again people did read guides even during Vanilla where the rotation was more or less a 1 button rotation and thats not even including the sweaty collect every optional source of damage to min max thats humanly possible that the playerbase started with when classic released and is now expecting everyone to do in classic (and its one of a reason why I wonât touch it anymore. I cba with the sweating on encounters that are outdated, have no prestige and fall over from sneezing basically)
You asked how much time you have to invest to be as good on your alt as on your main. The question shouldnât even have risen up in the first place. Its called a main and alt for a reason as Iâve stated. Its rarely the case one performs better on an alt than on their main (And I wont even use my ret as an example despite similar or even superior performance on the ret as I had prior experience on the Paladin in past expansions. That and the spec is one of the Faceroll Three.)
If I would play my mage and pull anything above a blue log out of the blue in Mythic outside of the boost bosses I would be asking serious questions about the community.
1 Like
Alright letâs get a concise Ice Lance tooltip with no fluff and nothing missing (I hope)
Honestly Blizzard⌠please stop. Please.
1 Like
I think it is irrelevant to bring up what players did 20 years ago in another game entirely.
What matters is surely the game as it is today, and it seems as if Classic is a lot more approachable to new players and retuning players alike, than Retail WoW is.
There can be a myriad of reasons for that, but I would make the argument that class design and gameplay has something to do with it.
I understand the averse reaction to âdumbing down the gameâ because youâre speaking from the perspective of a hardcore veteran retail player with the credentials to match, but designing the game to be favorable to that kind of player segment â at the expense a much broader audience â seems to me rather silly, considering that this gameâs ambition is to be popular among the masses.
And when you have existing veteran retail players start to voice the feedback that thereâs a bit too much going on with their classes vis ĂĄ vis rotation, passives, procs, ability bloat, modifiers, and so forth, then I struggle to see how itâs reasonable to take opposition to that as a whole, on the basis that itâs easy to learn and difficult to master and learn-to-play and those other dismissive âgit gudâ notions.
2 Likes
I can agree on Mages at least. But its notorious for being a convoluted mess as far as the whole package is concerned and regarded one of the harder (if not hardest) classes for a reason.
But from what I can see based on your tooltip is that Ice Lance wants you to perma freeze the target or pretend that its frozen however possible (which is similar to cata mages with deep freeze back then. Think it was Cata).
But thatâs not in the cards, is it?
I mean, Frost Mage when it relied on spamming Frost Bolt was a fairly slow and stationary spec.
But because the pace of the gameplay and the overall speed of action in WoW has only increased over time, then the class gameplay has had to change accordingly. And therefore the Frost Mage has to be able to dish out a lot of damage and do a lot of actions in short time and in changing conditions. So you get aâŚwhatever that amalgamation of math is.
And given that the game doesnât seem to be slowing down, I donât see what the design reaction to the above is, except more of it.
Its not irrelevant for one reason. Its to demonstrate how the playerbase has changed. We didnt know jackpoop back then. Stuff still died except AQ CâThun pre nerf/bugfix (Hakkar 5 Priests was killed by the chinese). We played our classes on a level that in hindsight could be considered grey logs. Everyone of us. Now everyone expects you to perform at a 99.9999% level and being up to date with every knowledge we have accumulated during the past decades.
Whats likely approachable to classic right now is that its something to do (we have seen this during past patch droughts) and streamers doing their things. Its also more fun to watch people die in Hardcore and Hardcore being a different view experience because its easier to die in classic than it is in retail and if you mess up youre very likely dead and people love to see that (been the case when HC launched the first time. Massive hype, went down, got rehyped when the streamers made onlyfangs)
And its not about dumbing down the classes (you cant really dumb down rets anymore). What I am saying is that people need to freaking stop expecting and wanting to play at the highest level and having mastered the class the moment they basically touch them. It never was a thing and it never will be a thing. You can clear Mythic with grey/green/blue logs.
To top it off we (and with that I mean playing around my rank, higher than my rank and below my rank) have asked for the raids and dungeons to be disarmed (which is the main problem. Not the classes) because youâre met with overly complicated bosses where some, emphasis on some, require weakauras (ovinaxx, fyrakk, tindral) or require way too many pulls (four 200+ pull bosses in a row is not acceptable) and oneshot mechanic after oneshot mechanic after oneshot mechanic (and this is something we have flamed for years now, and blizzard saying they wanted to reduce that, which ofc they did not).
Also I havent said git gud. I have said donât expect to play your main as good as your alt.
Iâm not being opposed to the class design and gameplay because I secretly want to play at the highest echelon by simply rolling my face across the keyboard.
Iâm opposed to it because I donât think itâs fun or intuitive. And I have elaborated as to why I think that. And it does ironically have the adverse effect that I often find myself rolling my face across the keyboard because the gameplay doesnât invite engagement. Itâs braindead because it has passed the point where I â the player â wants to try to optimize, but instead find myself not bothering, because thereâs too much random crap going on and most of it is unintuitive, and the reward of it all is to be transformed into a Korean StarCraft gamer with the APM levels to match.
Like I said, the class design and gameplay is akin to Beethovenâs Hammerklavier.
And we have made a nice little club here of expert veteran piano players who practice Hammerklavier all day long and are very good at it because weâve done it together every day for 20 years, but we donât understand why no one new wants to join our club. We even advertise outside with a big sign that says: âCome join the Hammerklavier piano club!â
But no one does.
Some kid once came and asked if he could practice Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, but we told him it was the Hammerklavier piano club and youâre only allowed to play Hammerklavier. He tried it, but he wasnât very good at it, and he hasnât come back since then.