PTR Spoiler/Discussion Thread (Part 2)

[Shadowtwili-argent-dawn (Shadowtwili)]

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

I want to try to convey how frustrating it is as a Horde player to be consistently thrust into the NElf storyline and be forced to help them.

To be fair, thats a sentiment the majority of Alliance players had with the Horde Rebellion(s). Or how they’re forced to forgive them because now we have a different warchief (who died within the year ) or a council.

So yaay, neither side is happy, which means its a good compromise?

@Shogganosh-argent-dawn

That information comes from Exploring Azeroth: Kalimdor

Exploring Azeroth: Kalimdor is the book that states that the night elves patrol Darkshore and Ashenvale, and attack that Horde fence in Azshara (with no succes, mind you), it makes absolutely no mention of night elf civilians (which were slaughtered in Elegy by the Horde), or rebuild towns and cities.

It goes on to state that the Horde owns, operates and live in Splintertree Post, Warsong Lumber Camp, Zoram’gar Outpost, Shatterspear Vale.

[Elenthas-argent-dawn (Elenthas)]

@Lintian-argent-dawn

Instead, Iridikron is barely seen in a minor patch before exiting the stage. Introducing an ensemble of four villains and then barely using the one foreshadowed as the most dangerous of them in the expansion he was introduced in is certainly… one of the decisions the writers ever made.

We can assume (love making assumptions!) he’s building up for the next expansion, I guess, but yeah it does feel like a waste, or at the very least a misallocation of focus/attention for big bad Iridikron to just vanish in a .7 patch and not get mentioned at all since?

Was it always part of the plan for him to vanish? Do Vyranoth/Fyrakk know what’s up? I can’t really tell if they are/were on board or if he’s acting alone. I guess alone??

I really can’t tell if DF is being cut early or if this was always the intention. The pace of patch releases has been very fast - far faster than expected - but in turn it makes it feel a bit rushed.

@Shadowtwili-argent-dawn

To be fair, thats a sentiment the majority of Alliance players had with the Horde Rebellion(s). Or how they’re forced to forgive them because now we have a different warchief (who died within the year ) or a council.

At least that only crops up every…four expacs or so, but yes, I do recognise it’s frustrating on that side as well.

[Nerathion-argent-dawn (Nerathion)]

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

I want to try to convey how frustrating it is as a Horde player to be consistently thrust into the NElf storyline and be forced to help them.

And I want to try to convey how frustrating Warlords of Draenor was that it’s an Orc on Orc expansion and good gods was it boring. Oh wait, it’s Orcs all the way to Legion, because hey - Gul’dan’s the shiny new reason why Legion exists, just like Garrosh was the reason why WoD exists.

Or how annoying it was to do Thrall stuff. The only reason right now it feels like you’re forced to help them is because Thrall was out of the picture, and they somehow forgot about Shamans I guess. However, consistently? IDK - I think you’re conflating your experiences with one-two quests where you did that to some sort of imaginary experience where the only quests that are told are where you help Night Elves.

Or maybe Blizzard wants to make a point about how Horde NPCs are always bad because they always seem to Do Really Bad Things to Night Elves and you as the morally good Player Character will make things right by helping the Night Elves.

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

Vanilla->Wrath, Cata->WoD, Legion->DF.

I think it’s just a little weird that you’re not making a comment about how Cata-WoD was so exorbitantly Orc (and not just since Cata, but well… since Wrath at the very least).

@Lintian-argent-dawn

I do agree with this. It feels like overcorrection.

Blizzard and overcorrection, name a more iconic duo. I’m not sure why anyone’s surprised. They do tend to make the third time a more balanced inbetween, but not always. So who knows, maybe the next expansion will be WoD 2.0 with gore .

@Shogganosh-argent-dawn

I just disagree with your approach of treating the night elves like they’re a monolith who are all moving to Amirdrassil together, when I can’t find any particular source for that

There is no source, because this entire point has been about a hypothetical that 10.2 will be the conclusion for the Night Elven main storyline since BfA started (Teldrassil - > post-Teldrassil → Renewal with New Tree, Blizzard likely will try to do a symbolic ‘will it won’t it burn a second time?’ but with a good resolution this time). And in that hypothetical I said IF the Night Elves all make a move to Amirdrassil as their new home, then that’ll leave the current zones in a limbo that’s hard to come back from.

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

At least that only crops up every…four expacs or so, but yes

Garrosh’s trajectory cropped up for several expansions in a row, actually. Wrath (Wrathgate, also that time when we assaulted Undercity?), Cata (helping Thrall and stuff), MoP (helping Horde overthrow Garrosh), Warlords (helping AU Orcs break free). So after that era was over, the shift from Orcs (and the ending of a mandatory Troll patch every expansion) changed to Night Elves for you, I guess. Who knows, maybe DF will end the Night Elf arc and the new era of WoW will have some new race that’s constantly in the spotlight.

Personally, I think it’d be really cool if Dwarves and Gnomes became the mainstays, and Tauren with… uhh… let’s go with Blood Elves, because I don’t trust Blizzard to make Goblins not be antisemitic if they had to write them for more than 2 seconds.

[Shadowtwili-argent-dawn (Shadowtwili)]

@Nerathion-argent-dawn

Gnomes became the mainstays

Wow, I agreed with you until this point.

Why you gotta do gnomekind like that?

@Nerathion-argent-dawn

Garrosh’s trajectory cropped up for several expansions in a row, actually.

Would say Garrosh’ trajectory started in TBC, but it was such a minor quest.

[Elenthas-argent-dawn (Elenthas)]

@Nerathion-argent-dawn

I think it’s just a little weird that you’re not making a comment about how Cata-WoD was so exorbitantly Orc (and not just since Cata, but well… since Wrath at the very least).

I mean, that’s because WoD was almost a decade ago, mostly. I’m kinda focused on my present gripes instead of historical stuff that hasn’t really been a thing since.

The orc’s forever focus ended with WoD, with Garrosh. Bits and pieces for them since (Saurfang’s weird BfA cinematics that seemed entirely separate from the actual expansion storyline?) but…yeah, when talking about bugbears, the NElf focus is one I’ve got because it’s still a very present thing. 10.2 is just around the corner, you know, so when I see the ask that it not end there but that they keep getting more I’m like…

Visualise Grug Orclover in the WoD-era “actually we need more orc focus after this, we need another bunch of orc-centric patches”, because that’s how it feels seeing people being like “no NElves actually need more focus after this”.

It’s not a competition, I’m not trying to win an argument, I’m saying I’m tired of NElves. Toss Taurens into the forefront for the next four expacs in the same way or something idc.

[Shadowtwili-argent-dawn (Shadowtwili)]

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

Visualise Grug Orclover in the WoD-era “actually we need more orc focus after this, we need another bunch of orc-centric patches”

I’m… I… this actually happened, though. I remember orc players wanting this (not all of them, but enough).

Same with how Iron/True/Korkron orc guilds kept popping up for years afterwards tho.

[Nerathion-argent-dawn (Nerathion)]

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

10.2 is just around the corner, you know, so when I see the ask that it not end there but that they keep getting more I’m like…

I’m perfectly fine with 10.2 being the end of major Night Elf stories, if it’s handled well. If not - I mean sorry, but you gotta make your wrongs right. You can’t really do something like Teldrassil and then just drop the story at the end of the expansion.

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

Visualise Grug Orclover in the WoD-era “actually we need more orc focus after this, we need another bunch of orc-centric patches”

I got news for you.

wait, are Orcposters the OG nelfposters?

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

I mean, that’s because WoD was almost a decade ago, mostly. I’m kinda focused on my present gripes instead of historical stuff that hasn’t really been a thing since.

Also, I have an issue with this - why should Night Elves not get their slice of the cake after Orcs got theirs a decade ago?

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

@Shogganosh-argent-dawn

Expect lots of grumbling about grudges going in the book and manlings and knife-earred elves and slayer oaths and blatant usage of the Khazalid language.

Sounds quite based ngl.

[Elenthas-argent-dawn (Elenthas)]

Also like irrelevant to the ongoing stuff but I saw it mentioned on twitter dot com and I think it kinda ties into how Dragonflight feels ‘childish’/shallow.

The Dragon Isles were “asleep” for 10k years, which means…uh…something. It’s generally interpreted as being ‘hidden’, it seems like the centaur, drakonids, tuskarr, etc. were all still awake, active, doing stuff, vibing, but uhhhh they didn’t do anything for ten thousand years. There’s no history there.

The drakonid made Valdrakken their home, supposedly, but they don’t seem to have actually done anything, grown, established their own cultures properly in absence of the dragons. Ten thousand years! It’s a long time, especially when apparently none of the races are long-lived.

@Nerathion-argent-dawn

Also, I have an issue with this - why should Night Elves not get their slice of the cake after Orcs got theirs a decade ago?

You have now had your slice of cake, it’s time to let someone else at the plate!

and yeah sometimes that means your story is a bit of a let down, blizzard writing in a nutshell

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

@Meronspell-argent-dawn

There is no way, no matter how bad your PR team is, that they decide during such a momentous occasion (especially for an mmo), that the new expansion is 4 generic zones with 0x lore attachment to anything Warcraft, with no familiar characters and a new setting that’s been rehashed from MoP and DF. I do not believe, no matter how AWFUL Blizz’s PR might actually be, that they’re tone-deaf enough to do a reveal like that during such a momentous occasion for Blizzard and Warcraft. There ain’t no way.

Hope. Such a tease. It always burns you, in the end.

[Shogganosh-argent-dawn]

The fact that the night elves are able to support a stable military presence in Northern Kalimdor is evidence of infrastructure that allows them to continue operating there - either civilian support or a bond with nature that renders traditional supply lines and a civilian population unnecessary.

In any case, Astranaar is mentioned as an example of a night elf settlement that is reclaimed and rebuilt, and the existence of the Horde settlements in the region doesn’t change the fact that the night elves do have a presence on Kalimdor as of that book.
I’m not trying to argue about faction balance or trying to make this about red-versus-blue, I’m just challenging the idea that the night elves will completely abandon Kalimdor as of 10.2.

@Nerathion-argent-dawn

And in that hypothetical I said IF the Night Elves all make a move to Amirdrassil as their new home, then that’ll leave the current zones in a limbo that’s hard to come back from.

I guess I just don’t get why and Meronspell came up with that hypothetical at all, since it seems like an odd conclusion to jump to. There isn’t a source for it so far and as far as I can think, there’s not any reason for it to happen either.

@Nerathion-argent-dawn

You can’t really do something like Teldrassil and then just drop the story at the end of the expansion.

They carried the story over two more expansions after that, with fresh plot for the night elves with every major content patch, none of which was satisfactory in the eyes of night elf fans. If they can’t make it right by 10.2, what makes you think that they’ll ever be able to get right?

An unsatisfactory conclusion is still a conclusion and I think we’ve all learned by now that sometimes it’s best when Blizzard pays no attention to your favourite races.

[Lintian-argent-dawn (Lintian)]

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

Visualise Grug Orclover in the WoD-era “actually we need more orc focus after this, we need another bunch of orc-centric patches”, because that’s how it feels seeing people being like “no NElves actually need more focus after this”.

I think what they want is not more content, but a satisfying resolution to the story arc that began with their capital burned down for cheap shock value. And I fear that by now people have lost trust in the storytellers to such an extent that no resolution will feel satisfying. Blizzard wrote themselves into a corner in BfA, then wrote themselves into an even tighter corner with whatever they were doing with the night elf story in Shadowlands, and lack the humility to admit they made a bad call, and lack the competence to make a good story out of it.

So assume they get their shiny new tree. So what? The staggering death toll remains. If anything, Shadowlands made it worse. After BfA, you could at least hope they would find peace in death. But in Shadowlands, not only did their souls go to super hell, but then many of those souls were turned into 35 anima before we managed to rescue them, and most of those we did rescue were sacrificed to fuel the new tree. So they still found no peace in the afterlife.

The dead night elves are still dead, Darkshore is still stuck getting plagued every other week (but the night elves totally have it back in lore trust us), and their replacement capital will by all indications be put in a land that has nothing to do with their history. The status of northern Kalimdor is left in limbo.

And this, my friends, is what happens when you have no story plan and try to wing a story that’s far too mature in its very premise for your crop of writers to handle.

[Elenthas-argent-dawn (Elenthas)]

@Lintian-argent-dawn

And I fear that by now people have lost trust in the storytellers to such an extent that no resolution will feel satisfying.

You’re probably right.

Amirdrassil isn’t going to satisfy everyone by any stretch (they should have planted it on top of Undercity) but it’s going to be a conclusion, and I don’t think asking for more story after that is going to make it better at this stage.

[Shogganosh-argent-dawn]

@Lintian-argent-dawn

I think what they want is not more content, but a satisfying resolution

It genuinely sucks that night elf fans didn’t get the resolution that they wanted, but I just hope that they understand that the solution isn’t to drag out the story, when it’s evident that they will not be satisfied with whatever Blizzard writes for the night elves at this point.

I’m not trying to rub the noses of night elf fans in the dirt, I’m just pointing out that this is probably the best that the night elves are going to get from Blizzard and the closest that they’ll get to a resolution. This is the closest thing to an adequate stopping point for this plot that we’re going to get, so I do hope that this is the stopping point.

[Lintian-argent-dawn (Lintian)]

I agree.

As a large language model trained by OpenAI night elf roleplayer, I think it’s best if Blizzard doesn’t touch night elves for a long while after 10.2.

It might not be the story we wanted, but at least the arc will have some resolution. Let them cut their losses and focus on other stories with no more yanking the chain with repeated “wait and see”. This is probably the least bad conclusion we’re getting, and asking for a continuation of this story arc would only be asking for more pain.

Edit: so basically what Shogganosh said in the post above.

[Nerathion-argent-dawn (Nerathion)]

@Shogganosh-argent-dawn

They carried the story over two more expansions after that, with fresh plot for the night elves with every major content patch, none of which was satisfactory in the eyes of night elf fans. If they can’t make it right by 10.2, what makes you think that they’ll ever be able to get right?

Because thus far the major content patches weren’t doing anything satisfactory? What?

Imagine you’re at the ice cream parlor and you ask for Chocolate Ice Cream, and all you get is… Almond. You’re allergic to almonds. Why are you mad, you got your Ice Cream!!!

They can write a good resolution if they wanted to, and just to spite Elenthas it might need an epilogue post 10.2 since it’ll continue staying in a limbo where Night Elf players want more if Amirdrassil stays in raid-state (whatever it’ll be, I’m predicting on fire).

The best resolution would’ve been if the Seed from Ardenweald just livened up Hyjal and they made the city there. You even have Firelands nearby if you wanted to tie in the raid. But you know, it has to be on Dragon Isles because that’s Current Content, and it’ll be Forgotten Content in a year, hooray for a limbo.

I’ll also just say that it’s been very frustrating to continuously get Really Awful Lore and then you have other people going ‘ugh rugh I’ve had it with these Night Elves, officially!’. Yeah, me too, that’s why I’m asking for Night Elf Lore That Is Finally Good. Like, the bar is so low that you’re just begging for anything with a good resolution.

The Darkshore patch was meant to be the win for Night Elves after a Very Long Time, and guess what, they couldn’t give us that. Blizzard only takes and doesn’t give in return, that’s why we’re worried that Amirdrassil is also taken as it’ll be a raid. And no resolution is given.

[Shadowtwili-argent-dawn (Shadowtwili)]

@Shogganosh-argent-dawn

The fact that the night elves are able to support a stable military presence in Northern Kalimdor is evidence of infrastructure that allows them to continue operating there

Is it tho? All we know is they patrol the borders (unsuccesfully apparently as the Horde still lives and works in Ashenvale and Darkshore), and unsuccesfully attack a single point in Azshara over and over again.

@Shogganosh-argent-dawn

Astranaar is mentioned as an example of a night elf settlement that is reclaimed and rebuilt

Ah damn, gotta reread that damn book now, cuz I seem to have forgot that one

@Shogganosh-argent-dawn

none of which was satisfactory in the eyes of night elf fans

I had a entire thing written out, then I saw Lintian’s post and she is way better with words than I’ll ever be, so yeah, what Lints said!

@Nerathion-argent-dawn

Seed from Ardenweald just livened up Hyjal and they made the city there.

I think the majority of people hoped for that, even knowing what we know from Blizzard!

[Shogganosh-argent-dawn]

@Nerathion-argent-dawn

Imagine you’re at the ice cream parlor and you ask for Chocolate Ice Cream, and all you get is… Almond. You’re allergic to almonds. Why are you mad, you got your Ice Cream!!!

I’m not saying “why are you mad,” I’m saying “why are you still asking for chocolate ice cream from the guy who has given you almond seven times in a row despite you asking for chocolate.”

There comes a point where you should accept that you’re not going to get what you want, so maybe the healthiest thing to do is stop asking for it and move on - and in this case, moving on involves allowing this plot to end here and letting Blizzard fix their baleful gaze on another race instead.

[Nerathion-argent-dawn (Nerathion)]

@Shogganosh-argent-dawn

There comes a point where you should accept that you’re not going to get what you want, so maybe the healthiest thing to do is stop asking for it and move on - and in this case, moving on involves allowing this plot to end here and letting Blizzard fix their baleful gaze on another race instead.

Well, since I haven’t gotten what I’ve wanted I’ve decided to stop visiting this Ice Cream parlor at all, but that doesn’t stop me from wishing the parlor actually knew how to give me a Chocolate Ice Cream! After all, I’m still nostalgic over that time 15 years ago when I got a very nice one.

I know they can do it!!

I guess the analogy also kinda falls apart, because as I said, you’re in the limbo. Your only chance to get out of the limbo is when Blizzard finally gives you chocolate.

[Shogganosh-argent-dawn]

Alternatively, you (or the people who still actively play night elves) might find it easier and more enjoyable to play night elves when you’re no longer grumpy over the latest horrific plot development or dreading the next horrific plot development, and you’ve got a stable status quo that you can plan and plot around.
You might argue that the limbo interferes with that, but that’s something that a lot of races have to deal with it and unless this “literally all night elves move to Amirdrassil” scenario comes true, I don’t think the limbo will be that significant.