Technically the Positive Energy Plane was a thing, but the Feywild is a less extreme version of it that is a lot more interesting, which probably inspired by the Emerald Dream and inspires it in turn.
But to prove my point, just look at the Chronicles cosmological model and compare it to Great Wheel cosmology model of D&D.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/universeconquest/images/7/72/WoW_Chronicle_Magic.jpg
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a2/Planes-5e.jpg
Yes, I am aware of what their intention was and where they borrowed their ideas from- And yet, WoW had some very distinctive differences to a DND setting. Factions. Classes being restricted to races. These are not exclusive to WoW or Warhammer, but they play a far more prominent role in storytelling in these two settings than they do in D&D.
Planes of existance not being explored until recent expansions (before you ask, I am aware elemental planes were explored in Cataclysm, and EoE in wotlk). But compared to DND, these themes are a fraction of WoW. Similar to how they are in Warhammer fantasy. Also the moment we explored afterlife it turned into complete manure. Well done.
To me, DND and WoW are as separate from eachother as day and night, no matter how much eachother has borrowed from the other. Not just because the gameplay is distinctively different and with different purposes, but also how the worldbuilding and events in the world manifest themselves.
At least that is how it used to be. Nowadays I can’t tell the difference between WoW storytelling and a neckbeard DM forcing his party through a fetish dungeon of his choice (see: niffen).
Wrong kind of elves!
(But then again, the label is so ambiguous by now that it’s practically empty unless you specify the setting. Tolkien’s “lofty immortal echoes of a lost golden age” elves are not D&D xenophobic forest ranger elves are not Warcraft long-eared magic addict elves are not Dragon Age subjugated ethnic minority elves.)
Yes and no.
I would welcome if Tauren paladins were distinctively, visually and ability name wise different from their Human counterparts. I could settle with that.
But in an ideal world they would be two different classes. Is there overlap? For sure, but we have SP and affliction lock too.
It would probably not be a very wise decision gameplay wise, hence it wouldn’t be a sustainable idea, but that’s why you stick with very general classes and ensure that both factions have enough races to choose from that can play x class.
Racially limited classes and favoured classes were a part of D&D before WoW was conceived, plus most D&D settings come with very strong cultures for different races which favour some classes over others.
Additionally, planar/cosmic elements have been important to WoW from the beginning, I’d argue. The first raid ever released is about the consequences of the lord of fire being summoned from the plane of fire into the physical world and the first expansion is about travelling to a ravaged world that’s adrift in the Twisting Nether, complete with crystalline spaceships and demonic magitech. Even back then, WoW gave those themes a lot more attention than most D&D settings, modules and campaigns do.
Looks like we’ve just got completely different interpretations of WoW as a game and a setting, that probably can’t be reconciled.
Not to mention that its other influence, Warhammer, also came from a D&D background, with Games Workshop starting their business as vendors of minis for D&D and White Wolf starting as a magazine for TTRPGs.
So, yeah, it’s not just Warcraft being a D&D setting; Warhammer is one too, to the point that its first figurines were D&D minis they started giving lore to, such as Harry Hammerstorm, which they never backed away from, only added their own flair onto as it went from this:
https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/6/69/Harald_Hammerstorm_WD.jpg
To this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ridw3505gKE
…Notice also that the other shines with it’s absence in modern days, when WoW still clings to at least few of it’s classes being restricted to very few races, up until very recently.
Yes, but it does not take place in a planar world. Compare Ragnaros to Tiamat (a somewhat equivalent villain/boss), who in most media I’ve watched is fought either directly in Avernus, a pocket of Avernus, or outside of Avernus but very strong ties to it, Ragnaros was fought with in Azeroth. Not firelands. Azeroth.
… Which consequently is also one of the most destructive expansions ever to date. So yes, as soon as WoW borrows into these planar models, the lore turns into goo. Not a big surprise.
Instead of getting Broken, we received tieflings but blue.
Yes, much to it’s own discredit.
There’s a reason why Wotlk was the best expansion in term of subs. You could argue that the shadowlands were present in that expansion too, but it was always in the background, much like the elemental planes.
No we can’t.
It’s another illustration that because modern Warcraft is so thematically broad, it means different things to different people. Like I mentioned here:
https://lintian.eu/2023/11/02/warcraft-retrospective-1/
Warcraft, by now, means wildly different things to different people, and the writing team is put in the unenviable position of trying not to step on too many toes.
Each of these people probably has favorite and unfavorite Warcraft games or expansions. And the problem with having a favorite expansion is that if it clicks with you, you don’t particularly mind the inevitable bending of the world that is needed for that expansion’s story to happen. But if you don’t like an expansion, then the compromises made by the writers to tell its story cause you nothing but annoyance, and you start picking it apart at every possible opportunity. And if you’re feeling particularly spiteful, you might be genuinely puzzled how someone can actually like that garbage expansion, and start calling its fans names.
I can see where you’re coming from, even if the things that appeal to me about the setting are different, as I enjoy playing iconoclast characters who challenge their cultural norms without completely breaking ties with their culture.
Ironically, that’s the wrong way around. Tieflings only got a uniform aesthetic with the fourth edition, after the release of the Burning Crusade, which had a shocking amount of traits in common with draenei. It was so blatant that loads of people declared that Wizards of the Coast was copying Blizzard.
It’s not a surprise, considering that the fourth edition was thought of as trying to copy World of Warcraft in every other way possible, from aesthetics to gameplay mechanics.
But before that edition, tieflings didn’t have a set appearance and they certainly didn’t look like draenei.
If you’d describe the Well of Dragons (the most recent location where Tiamat has been fought in official material) as a place “with very strong ties to Avernus” when the only thing that ties it to Avernus is the fact that it was used as a temple to Tiamat, I don’t think you’ll fault me for describing the Molten Core as a location with very strong ties to the Firelands.
One of the most prominent and beloved storylines of that expansion involved a bunch of magical constructs created by arcane ancient astronauts who were dedicated to purging the influence of a Lovecraftian deity from the world, only to end up corrupted by it in the process, except by the end, the world was already so corrupted that a literal anthropomorphic constellation was about to press the world’s restart button and annihilate all life.
That was a pretty cosmic plot.
Absolutely, I won’t take how Atahalni feels away from him. This whole discussion was just to highlight that some people feel differently and to provide some reasoning for why they feel that way.
I know that most of the characters that I play are grounded in the cultures that they were born into, I just don’t have a problem with characters that deviate from what their members of their race ‘should be.’
I’m sure I linked it before, but yeah.
Here’s art for them from 2e:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/1/18/Tieflings_PWHB_PS.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width/360?cb=20140911080635
Elf/Satyrs, basically.
And Haer’dalis, from BG2:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/0/09/Haer%27Dalis_-_Shadows_of_Amn.png/revision/latest/thumbnail/width/360/height/450?cb=20180730123640
Then this was the art in the 3.5 Monster Manual:
https://www.enworld.org/media/tiefling-3e-jpg.95149/full
Fair skin, with devil horns and and tail.
Then 4e (2008) gave us
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dnd4/images/2/2d/TieflingPHB48.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20161119223513
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c6/4e_tiefling.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080924052904
Which is the same sorta vibe they carried into 5e
https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/dnd-5e-tiefling-magic.jpg
I use any pronouns for myself so in this case it’s fine (I mean this as reassuring because you were kind) but thank you, I agree.
General now:
Amusingly, Night elves are my favorite race in WoW. I took a while to warm up to the blood elves themes. Also that guy was a weirdo.
Yes, I am aware that modern homogenous tieflings emerge around 2008, which is after Burning Crusade. However, their fanart depicted them as such far before that- It’s not like they just magically appeared out of thin air. Not homogenously, mind you, but they existed already.
In either case, which came first the egg or the hen is irrelevant because Metzen has omitted that the retcon of the draenei was handled poorly. And once again, it’s quite blatantly obvious why it was done.
Not because it was necessary, but again, because it was convenient. That has been my argument from the beginning. And I despise that lore is not treated like the chains it should be by the devs, which is ever apparent with Danuser.
No, the more accurate comparison would be to compare where tiamat was first fought vs where Ragnaros was first fought. The comparison in your example would be accurate if you compared the fight in the well of dragons to the firelands encounter.
Weird, I do not remember that part from the cinematic of Wotlk. Nor from the rest of the patches.
I’m not saying Ulduar wasn’t good- It was. But again, you are comparing a part of an expansion to the overall theme which was very much saturated wandering into the frozen wastelands of northrend into the land of the endless hordes of the scourge to face down the LK.
Nor did we wade into the cosmic beyond beyond EOE; We were firmly planted in Azeroth, not in another plane of existance.
I mean I could sell the entirety of Cataclysm’s questline based on Uldum alone, or Pandaria by Halfhill farm, yet that would give a very inaccurate description of the whole theme of the expansion.
I have played plenty of those characters myself. I played my goblin warrior, Boush, as being very brave and fearless despite the whimsical nature of goblins. I play Atahalni as an evil grimtotem sorcerer that draws inspiration from Fae and blood magic and skinwalkers.
They are both deviating from their main cultural reference points, but they are still existing within them.
If I had played Boush instead as tinkering with draenei crystal tech, it would have felt very off to me. It’s not appropriate nor fitting to the race. Could you make it work? For sure. Do I want to do that? No, and I think it completely ruins the lore atmosphere the game tried to send back in the day.
I see WoW races are more than extensions of a concept. They’re rules, lines drawn in sand that set the tone of what kind of story you want to tell- kind of like the example I gave about warhammer units previously, and how Meronspell compared Tomb Guard to Reiksguard etc. They all effectively are the same thing, but give each their cultural twist to the concept.
You can always have exceptions, of course. A fighter’s guild or somesuch, where everyone is more homogenic. But those are again a separate feature.
No, i see kaldorei as blizzard has presented them in all their lore, not just parts of the game i play with other races.
kaldorei are a race, not a class.
You’re being argumentative.
Source? I saw a whole city of them, and they weren’t the only faction of arcane using night elves, then I saw them ally with the Darnassians and train many more.
So how many night elves are around then?
Whether 1 or 50 or 2,000, they still represent a huge chunk of the kaldorei. Same goes for demon hunter illidari, druids ore priestess, just because you minimise or deny their existence doesn’t make them disappear.
there are people who love the kaldorei civilziation culture they’ve read about and want a superior improved version.
I mean you’re hte one that is reducing night elves to only one section, and having a go at fans who want more for htem, especially all the cool bits in all thier lore, not jsut one aspect of it.
it’s like the old druid syndrom, blizzard had druids as versatile as they come in the lore, but in clasisc they just delveloped their healing, and it almost turned into a healer class only, depsite having 2 other specs, fortunatley they course corrected, making feral, balance and the split guardian just as relevant, and the calss feels so much better and richer, much better portraying the lore.
So when we ask for night elves to be shown as competent and dangerous as they are in the lore books and other games, to see their civilization bits, their high arcane magic wonders in addition to the rural forests and druidic culture - this only makes the night elves better and more attractive.
Who woudl oppose this? obviously people who don’t play or like the night elves. I don’t see you rolling around, advocating and supporting them as rural and foresty as they are where most people complain about them.
All you say is they are where they should be, because this is the night elves, knowing full well, their fans don’t like it, it makes no one, including yourself particularly interested in them… yet you want us to accept your conclusion for them when even the lore and the game show a different one.
Right.
Clearly - and you are clearly brimming with excitement and jumping on your night elf toons and supporting the night elf cause… oh wait.
Blizzard DID not create a new name for the night elves because the night elves haven’t changed.
Ever thought it was intentional? They are still the same group. They didn’t gain a new culture at all. one group focused on one aspect of their culture that existed in the per-sundering era, another 2 groups continued in their culture also, but the one more urban focused “near the end” of the pre-sundering era period. others still had a new culture created with the legion’s invasion, the culture of the fel wielding demon hunter.
this is ALL the night elf lore…
The entitlement is so big I had to read the posts thrice to stop thinking it’s a troll.
I’m glad they don’t RP, they’d cause pain.
TL:DR
Sorry that happened to you, or happy!
Does that answer the question of who is worse, the nelf-poster or anti-nelf-poster?
Nah, you are just incapable of understanding that the same word can describe two vastly different societies that are in no way the same nor should there be an expectation for those societies to be the same.
No way. Also, what?
And loving it.
Did you? Because I saw the city filled with ogres, satyr, weird plant thingies, and then one small part of it where Shen´dralar were living after they killed off (and abandoned) most of their city.
And that was before Horde epicly owned them and killed most of the remaining Highborne off.
I suggest reading the Chronicle.
1 kaldorei or 50 kaldorei are in fact not a huge chunk of the kaldorei.
All the “many” night elf Illidari (a.k.a. 50% of an elite group that is a result of a process where only few survive, created by a guy night elves call “The Betrayer”) are in the tower with other outcasts. They are nothing like druids or priestesses, who are the core part of night elf culture.
Don´t worry, we all know you want to win epicly instead of getting a good story.
But you didn´t start bringing one´s avatar´s race into the conversation because of me, but because of Narme.
I am a night elf fan, I like what they did with Bel´Ameth, and it made me more interested in RPing my night elf again. And I know others who are quite happy with how this turned out.
But the crazies can´t be satisfied, which is on one hand sad, on the other, it´s been fun watching you mald.
Nah, I prefer to post on my RP main who has for past 2,5 years also been my forum main.
You should really read on this thing called “lore”, some things within it would surprise you.
Thank you for this great joke.
One of the fun aspects of RPing a (highborne) mage has always been how they don’t quite fit in the larger night elf society, but at the same time are not entitely antithetical to it.
It is intersting to have a character try to keep alive something that probably, inevitably, will one day cease to be.
I hate elves