PTR Spoiler/Discussion Thread (Part 2)

But you do get it mentioned, through those multiple singular characters. The character-driven storylines serve as part of a reflection of the general trend in the world. You’re not going to get a full zone-wide change, as Blizzard said since Cataclysm that they’ll never do this again. If at all, they’ll update the zones whenever content happens, as we’ve seen with Vale and Uldum, Darkshore and Arathi.

They have been telling, and in Dragon Isles also showing the renewal. Whether it’s done well or not is besides the point. And in the end, my argument was that how is this Golden’s problem that Blizzard did not add in more? Should character developments stay in limbo because it does not tell a bigger picture? If character stories only get made to tell a larger story, you’ll end up with hollow underdeveloped characters that you - the reader - has to headcanon their entire story on.

As someone else said, it’s meat and skeletons. You need both. Golden can do character-driven stories well, and I feel like she does manage to successfully flesh out characters, their thoughts, ideals, motivations, etcetera well. She struggles with grander narratives, or general worldbuilding. You need both. We’ll see how storytelling changes - if at all - without Golden. Hollow and shallow characters do not interest me, even if the worldbuilding is good.

Your post was about how presumably Golden (and Danuser) were tasked with making a story to reflect the timeskip decided to instead make a story about Lor’themar and Thalyssra marrying, and how they aren’t the right people to create stories for WoW. I disagreed - you need both: people who write character-driven stories, and people who writer more general worldbuilding stories.

Your assumption is weird anyway, as you’re insinuating Golden (and/or Danuser + writing team) instead of writing about the timeskip decided to write about the marriage, as if it’s a one-or-the-other thing. Maybe the story was written independently?

You then ended with saying that ‘they aren’t the right people to create the story of such a massive world where fans often fell in love with the world itself rather than the characters’. You need both. If your characters suck, you’ve done a poor job at writing the story. Remember how people hated Knaak? So, as I’ve said repeatedly - you need both, people to write worldbuilding and people to write characters, and Golden was good at the characters.

Well, apparently none of it is relevant because you’re just dismissing everything. What are you even wanting from Blizzard? For each zone to be updated with fully fleshed out questlines? Have you forgotten Cataclysm?

In fact, those ‘five quests’ did tell you a lot of story. Gilneas got reclaimed and they managed to work together with Forsaken, putting aside their differences, etcetera etcetera. Again, did you even play the game??? Forsaken reclaiming Lordaeron you can also include in the timeskip.

I’m now the one who’s actually confused with what you meant and what you want. You can disregard stories about people outside of Azeroth having a moment to heal together and say that there were none, but… that just makes you factually wrong, sorry.

If you need to timeskip 3 years into the future through NPC dialogue from one NPC that’s easily missable at the start of an expansion just to escape the stink of BfA and Shadowlands and hope people won’t question why everything still looks the exact same post-fourth WORLD WAR. Then yes, you’re probably not doing it right, or have been told by someone else to not do it right. That just seems like common sense to me, you don’t glaze over a world war that devastated the entire planet; every race and zone would need to heal and recover from that but as far as we know no-one needed too strangely enough despite the war resulting in both sides needing to draft up basic civilians to keep it going.

I’m so glad the Forsaken dropped hundreds of plague bombs on Gilneas city again whilst the Alliance-side were actively fighting the Scarlets inside to try and reclaim the city without causing a second plague incident where it has to be vacated for another 20 years. But don’t worry this isn’t brought up at the end by Tess or Genn despite it being a damn near assassination attempt on the royalty of Gilneas that Sylvanas WISHES she could’ve got close to performing.

This happened in Slands and nothing has been done about it since except a rebuilt Brill.

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Where did I say they were tasked with it?

The assumption was based on Danuser´s own comment where he announced the story in his post about timeskip where he also said they don´t want things to happen during the timeskip but rather in-game after it.
If someone outright says they don´t want to develop X, I´m going to take them at their word and say they didn´t want to develop X.

I agree, which is why they should hire people who do both instead of just one such as Christie Golden. But, if they really can only do one, then they should always hire someone like Knaak who will worldbuild, even at the cost of characters, because at the end of the day, the world of Warcraft tends to be much more appealing to players and RPers than characters of Warcraft.

You said:

No, bunch of newly introduced factions on newly introduced island and dragonflights doing healing sn´t in fact entire Azeroth collectively having a moment to heal together.

You mean when they dropped Blight barrels on Gilneas? But, as I said, a minor questline at the end of 10.2.5 isn´t something that defines the whole expansion´s story.
Just shows the handling of “healing”, just like when in the healing story of orc heritage questline we find out that Warsong is still in Ashenvale, a territory that, as per War Crimes, was night elf land post-MoP, meaning it´s either a retcon or Horde took territory in BfA that hasn´t been returned yet. So much for healing.

I was replying to your comment about Dragonflight being expansion that does the healing with my “not much healing besides night elves” comment. 9.2.5 is part of Shadowlands.

I think everyone here agrees on that point, y’know.

I admit, I’ve kinda lost track of what people are arguing about, now, only that it’s not really Spoiler relevant, so -shrug-

Wait, I thought she wrote Star Trek Voyager instead of Star Wars?

One of the three that were translated in Dutch too! I often read it when I need a quick fix, but for a wow novel it’s solid.

As for Gilneas, being a gilneas rp’er since I got here in 2013 I can say many things about what I thought of that questline but, I already did that either earlier in the thread or elsewhere so, won’t clog it. Those who know me know how I feel about it. It just would’ve been nice if it’d had received as much attention as the night elves and Amirdrassil did ( okay maybe not that much given we fought an entire patch and raid to get that tree where it had to be.)

I also want a clear answer from Blizz as to what the hell actually happened to Murozond and the Infinites ,because what we got… that just can’t be it, not if you entirely disregard his previous lore. Murozond -is- Nozdormu’s end, the very vision he has seen upon receiving his Aspect powers the first time.

As for the rest of wow, I guess we’ll see where it takes us. Though, even as a main Alliance player, I have to agree, throw the Horde a bone too storywise, they sorely need it.

She writes both.

Welp I stand corrected.

It appears, at least for now, that the new canon of the Infinites is that they’re either largely young bronze’s who got upset at the weight of their charge and power and the sometimes “ends justify the means” mentality it gave them so they became corrupted and infinite - Murozond, according to Chromie in DF, is either an alternate-reality Nozdormu who went Infinite or corrupt Nozdormu from Deios corrupting him. This will no doubt change at some vague point in the future but that’s what we know for now.

Given that we’ve allied with the Infinites now and are bringing them back into the fold of the Bronze Dragonflight it does seem to confirm the above as well.

Again, you’re just being confusing now. What did you want? You make it out to be like there was only one short story/book/non-game narrative media that was allowed to be created, and Golden/Danuser decided to write about two characters marrying instead.

Okay, so instead of the characters randomly being married in-game, there’s a short story for it?

Or, they can do both and keep Golden. Guess why the world of Warcraft was more appealing to players and RPers than the characters?

And a bunch of Azeroth’s own factions’ stories, and cross-faction cooperation, and so on is.

Again, I’m not arguing whether it’s done well or not. The narrative is that they worked together. Do they lose track of whatever continuity they have? Yes, they’ve done that all the time. Exploring Kalimdor and other similar books are also egregious in that regard, as it was their opportunity to show more of the healing and instead it felt like writers flew over in-game zones and wrote about that.

But with several representatives in Dragonflight speaking about moving past traumas, healing, and processing it all, I can’t help but to wonder how to not read it as people of Azeroth having a moment to breathe and recover.

But do we really need such in depth character development?
Like take the Batman character Joker, the more they explain about him, the less interesting he becomes. Do we really need to flesh out his origin, his birthname, his youth love interest?
Why can’t characters be good or bad because they just are. Life is one big hue of greyscale but entertainment doesn’t have to be.

I really feel like you aren´t reading what I write and instead create words that I haven´t said, then arguing against those words.
Where did I say they were only allowed to create one story, or they were tasked with doing something?
It´s impossible to explain myself when you´re asking me to explain things I never said.

And it would be nice if there was more stuff than that short story. Such as series of books about the world that could show us current state of it that wouldn´t just be relegated into someone flying over the old zones.
(And credit where credit is due, Golden did more work here than the others and actually looked at BfA mission table stuff to update that info for the one she wrote)

The faction stories, besides night elves, were a minor side thing, sometimes exclusive to them only, and sometimes even doing things that would actively damage that healing (Blight, Warsong settling in Ashenvale again).
But you´re right, the Dragonscale Expedition was shown to us as Alliance and Horde working together for about 15 minutes at the start of the main story. Not much, and absolutely cringeworthy in its portrayal, but it was there.

Because it´s not people of Azeroth but bunch of main characters such as Voss, Shandris and so on. Once again we´re getting back to the problem of no worldbuilding, because instead of the people healing, main characters are healing.

But it doesn´t matter that Jaina can touch Thrall´s bicep now when there´s a town in Stormsong Valley that has been brutally assaulted by the Horde, or when Zandalari capital was sacked by the Alliance. Those are the places we should either be shown, or read about, healing, and besides night elves (and then, in minor patch at the end of expansion, Gilneans) we don´t see that.

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And instead of actually explaining yourself you end up with the fifth post saying nothing. :+1:

And I said as much as well! You needed both. It’s what I said from the get-go. I’m not sure why you needed to continue after my first reply. Again - it’s just confusing.

Welcome to the problem of Warcraft storytelling. In books, it’s all about main characters. In game, it’s all about main characters. The only time it wasn’t was in Vanilla. If anything, Dragonflight has done a better job than most other expansions where you also did get people healing stories as well. You can sometimes extrapolate that to larger groups as well.

Sure. You could argue any zone really needs it, really. Who knows, maybe when the Exploring X books reach BfA zones we get an actual lore update. But hey, with Golden and whoever else gone, it’ll likely not even be a five-quest mention and just ‘btw the Zandalari are OK’ as that was the extent of storytelling in earlier WoW.

You really need to have both character-driven and worldbuilding stories to have one cohesive, fleshed out narrative, not one or the other.

Giving a character depth isn’t the same as removing the mystery around them.

Heath Ledger’s Joker is a deeper and more interesting character than Cesar Romero’s Joker, even though we know absolutely nothing about his backstory.

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OK, so you really aren´t reading anything.
I tell you how I can´t explain things I haven´t said and you ask me to explain what I haven´t said.

Because you haven´t specified what “both” meant until I repeatedly asked you. When you use phrase “both make up for the worldbuilding”, it´s not really intuitive to assume that worldbuilding is one of the “both”.

Strange, because until Shadowlands the stories also involved the nations themselves through utilizing armies of those nations and factions within those nations.

And what makes you think Golden is the person that would improve those books? The best one by far seems to be Pandaria and she didn´t work on that one.

Apparently earthen can be death knights.

How the hell does that work?

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But not Druids. . .but they can be Paladins.

Apparently uh, death finds a way I guess, even with robots.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathrock

But they turn into inanimate rubble when they die! They don’t even leave corpses!

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At this point, I think the main reason Blizzard hasn’t made druids available to every race is because they require unique graphics for every race.

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Replace all the Order magic (:nauseated_face: ) magic with Death magic.

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