PTR Spoiler/Discussion Thread (Part 3)

I played through the questline on the PTR after skimming the initial leaks. I have thoughts I may post later.

Eitrigg features in the story, as he did in Heartlands. Thrall doesn’t at all, which surprises me.

Here Danath behaves so much like Tirion (down to the way he speaks to Eitrigg) that it almost looks like they were confused for one another, but he was like this in Heartlands too.

Regarding this:

I figured the orcs were still in situ, per this bit of dialogue from Joseph the Enlightened:

It turns out they abandoned it after the Fourth War and it’s the Red Dawn who’re living in there:

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I gave the whole questline a run through (I play an alteraci, I couldn’t resist!!)

It’s not all that bad. I admittedly did not play it on a human, and there is a lot of difference from what I could see in how quest NPCs respond to horde then non-human alliance, and I imagine there’d be a difference for human players as they are part of the ‘okay’ group. There was talk options for the Marran Loyalists but they’d attack me on sight on my velf, alas! So, I couldn’t really try them out…

Shadowtwili is kind of spot on in that it’s a weird characterization for Danath. Not an unwelcome one, but if we’re going to delve into Stromgarde like this I would really like to see more… detail-work, in all honesty. The Scarlet Crusade isn’t really elaborated on, but they make the most sense here. The Defias boggled me slightly, how did they even get this far north? I suppose by ship. The Syndicate rubber-band between being comedic relief in the questline and also surprisingly cunning, to the point I was actually hoping they were masquerading as Scarlets and Defias to trick everyone-- but then it’s just randomly cleared up for us that no, it’s all three. We get to see some individual propaganda letters to each faction, I took some screenies if anyone wants to see.

Link here: https://imgur.com/a/kOr4YH7

I wish, given all the history of these three groups, they were not merged from three bad guys to be one bad guy in a trenchcoat. It does a disserve to what is otherwise a very interesting Horde narrative that does its best to portray them in a positive light only to fall short. The horde rescue and care for human refugees (before finding out they’re just Syndicate spies that attempt to burn Hammerfall to the ground), there’s wonderful stay and listen talk between Eitrigg and Faerin as she realizes her Arathi have more in common with the orcs than they do with her own not so distant relatives of Stromgarde.

It’s all building wonderfully to this almost doomed narrative of how the Horde do everything right here, but it’s the humans that sabotage it. But of course, it can’t really be true because then they’d have to have the Alliance do a bad thing, so the best they can do is let the Stromic be really racist to your non-human player character (and I mean just about EVERYONE throws out comments along the lines of ‘Humanity First!’ and even those who don’t attack us line the commentary with bits of “You just want to take and take and leave nothing to the rest of us” and “Go back where you came from!”

It gives this great opportunity to examine what would happen after this narrative. In the end, obviously, Marran is almost killed but Danath wants to spare her, saying not to make her a marytr. The Red Dawn rises… and immediately falls. They claim the three groups will immediately dissolve and stop working together. You’d think now we would get into what happens when you oust a leader who has turned a city afraid of their own allies and neighbors for their races? Will the obvious racist narratives of the Stromic now be a point of contention among the Alliance?

… Nope! Never addressed. Wrapped up with a bow and maybe will be brought back again inevitably when they need another Alliance adjacent bad guy (because they cannot actually be Alliance, ofc)

Overall, it wasn’t bad. Stromic roleplayers get a nice title and tabard out of it. Hilariously, it seems (for now on the PTR at least) that the Marran Loyalists just stick around in Stromgarde? So any non-human characters wanting to RP there are going to be liable to get jumped by racists. Kind of the cherry on top of the weird decisions sundae.

I loved the horde bits though! Really, they were the better part of all of this. Eitrigg is so lovely to see again.
(And also, this line where specifically one of the instigators complains how gnomes, elves and draenei keep taking all their grain is so funny. Those darn, grain loving gnomes!! https://imgur.com/a/KpIuRbH)

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Making those “licensed” horde/ally citizens rpers in each other’s cities canon. May God have mercy on my soul I feel a racist grandpa moment rising in my blood.

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Yeah, I got the same feeling.

It’s kind of jarring how Danath’s entire personality did a 180 from orcs are filthy greenskins to “Marran wth, orcs are frens”.

So. Strom, Gilneas and Bel’ameth, the top 3 Alliance cities who should hate the Horde allows the Horde within their cities limits.

When can I go to Lordaeron? Silvermoon? The Nighthold? on a Alliance character?

Its 3 vs 0 at the moment, and those 3 should’ve been the cities who hate the Horde the most, at any rate.

Otherwise, the patch looking good, and Undead, Orc and Humans are eating good aswell!

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Those BfA coats are looking DIVINE. And pretty great on nearly every race. The only unfortunate clipping I saw was the tauren / worgen hunches.

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I gotta ask, are they allowing Horde in, or are they allowing the Horde Champion in? Because there´s a massive difference between the two, on the same level how there´s a massive difference between Lor´themar being allowed in Boralus and random orc being allowed in.

Our player character is much closer to Horde leaders in status than average Horde citizen. Unless we have actual Horde NPC chilling in Stromgarde, presence of the PC means frankly nothing.

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I suppose its one way to have a city’s populations proper concerns swept away and be seen as evil.

The whole faction, who has genuine concern with an alien faction from an alternate universe, claiming lands in their recently defended and hard won Highlands is aksually made up from evil factions guys! They are clearly wrong for not wanting their hated enemies within their borders guys!!1!1!one!

I swear these writers :man_facepalming:t3:

Arathi Basin was contested because, well, nobody lived there. Arathi Highlands has a history of fighting the Horde, and now the Horde just lets a whole society go and claim that land as their own, mind you, the whole society that came to Azeroth to conquer and kill Alliance, and especially the folllowers of the Light(with their whole schtick being hating on the Lightforged)

Atleast we Horde-bro’s cannot complain about having that little Kul Tiran outpost in Durotar anymore, they’re just there to live peacrfully, but if the Horde attacks them, they’ll just have to defend themselves and their lands within Durotar!

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To my knowledge the horde player character is given deputy status to deliver missives and insist upon curfew instilled in Stromgarde (to what end the NPCs thought this was a good idea, I don’t know, but it is what it is.)

For the horde, they take in human refugees in Hammerfall out of kindness, and they wind up all being Syndicate. Hence by the end of that, there are no humans in Hammerfall.

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For me, something just as flabbergasting as the Arathor scenario is the Xal’atath Lorewalking questline.

Lorewalking should be an opportunity to explore old lore, perhaps from a new angle, to refresh the memory of players and maybe offer a different perspective on a character.

In this instance, Lorewalking goes much further than that. It is through Lorewalker Cho that we discover that Xal’atath was originally a void entity who attempted to subjugate N’Zoth and conquer Ny’alotha. The Old Gods unite against her and through their power, she is bound in the form of an artifact.

I already suspected as much, with the additional theory that she came along to feed Azeroth to her master Dimensius while the Old Gods were far more interested in Azeroth’s gradual corruption, but this is lore that should be uncovered as part of an actual campaign, as part of the game’s core story and MSQ, not as part of the “let’s catch up with the old lore” side-feature.

For me, it further cements that Xal’atath is a part of Danuser’s legacy and that her story is something that Metzen just wants to get out of the way, rather than focus on.

80% of the city is empty. If you want to claim one of the districts of the city as an Alliance embassy, you do you.

Just wait for Midnight. Almost guaranteed to become neutral.

Mostly empty, aside from easily avoidable groups of low-level NPCs. Dead easy to RP there as Alliance, albeit in a separate phase from the Horde.

If you or any Alliance player wants to do ambassador or tourist RP in those locations, it’s totally possible for two of them and will be for Silvermoon come Midnight, provided that it isn’t destroyed. But just like how the Horde mostly doesn’t RP in Bel’ameth, Gilneas or Stromgarde at all, I don’t think that’s likely to happen.

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https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_fullsize/plain/did:plc:kvmuntwkby4lto5ire2mau6h/bafkreih5h5ebndihintfeqsbu7k7n72rdobvx4er7mdrlzc7aqhgbbejca@jpeg

Looks like the formation of Umbric’s void reject loser idiot stupid heads is another lorewalking thing?

If she was part of Danuser´s legacy and something Metzen wants to throw away, she wouldn´t have appeared in War Within at all. Metzen took over in early 2023, which means he had creative control over the expansion for months before the trailer. He had plenty time to change what characters are present.

What he didn´t have control over are the zones and their general vibe. He couldn´t change Hallowfall in its entirety because that was already being developed. But he could change characters that exist within the story because those do not require extensive rework of the actual assets.

We also know that original plan for War Within was “just another WoW expansion”. There was no grand plan, just us delving deep into the ground, with convenient plot hook of Coreway to unlock new zones for us as expansion progresses. And, if you look at the content Danuser actually had control over (rather than something Afrasiabi was in charge of but for some reason community now thinks it was pure Danuser stuff, such as BfA or base Slands), you will find that focus on the Void has never been there. Steve Danuser has always been about “lies of the Titans”, First Ones, reworking cosmology and so on. Xal´atath, heralding invasion of the Void, just doesn´t fit into this mold. And, you might notice that the only appearance of Xal´atath in his stories is a vague shadowy figure in a cutscene in a patch that was released months after Metzen´s return. Iridikron is Danuser´s baby, not her.

Xal´atath is clearly Metzen´s addition to War Within to give it a villain that can connect it to the two expansions he is going to have full creative control over. And, as Blizzard has clearly stated, she is here for the long run.

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The exact dates are returning to Blizzard as a creative advisor in December 2022, and replacing Danuser as senior creative director in September 2023, two months before the War Within’s reveal.
He also stated that when he came back, the War Within had already been under production for ten months.
If that was ten months before he first came back in December 2022, it would be another nine months before he would have full creative control over the expansion. That’s a year and a half of development without him in the driving seat, with only eleven months left until the release date.
If that was ten months before he took the director role in September 2023, that’s still only eleven months until the release date, with almost half of the development time already spent on Danuser’s vision.

I say all of that to point out that there is only so much course correction that he could do. Trailers were almost certainly already in production, most of the story had likely already been written (at least in broad strokes), basic skeletons of all of the zones had likely already been made and so on.

While there’s a good chance that Metzen might have recontextualised the character of Xal’atath by tying her more closely to Dimensius and his old vision of the Void, I do think that the core premise of Xal’atath screams Danuser, what with her nature as a smug gothic elven villainess. She’s just his type, through and through. Before Metzen was able to rewrite parts of her, she could have represented the truth of the Black Empire that the Titans were trying to bury, the embodiment of all of the “advances” that the Old Gods had achieved or something.

And while you’re right that Xal’atath was teased after Metzen returned as a creative advisor, Danuser was still very much in command at that point. It’s ultimately up to you to decide whether Metzen was able to convince Danuser to include her and to push the narrative in that particular direction, or whether it was Danuser’s decision from the very start.

At the very least, it’s a fun mental exercise, trying to figure out which creative director was responsible for which part of the War Within. Maybe one day we’ll learn the truth, or maybe we’ll never know.

All I know for certain is that revealing the ancient origin of your expansion’s primary villain, in a piece of side-content that is supposed to help players catch up with the lore, is a bad move.

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From what I gathered, Danath is allowing Horde in the city’s walls in general, but Josep specifically points towards an Orc!

You know what I mean. From all the complaints Horde fans (or Warcraft fans in general) have for Horde not being the focus (or being left out), being the main focus of an expansion’s narrative comes with downsides, aswell. Mainly with races and cities which should hate the Horde or certain elements within the Horde, the most, being forced into this state of neutrality which makes no sense narratively because these writers couldn’t write a decent story if their lives depended on it.

On a side note, I am just being salty because this was a good way to bring Cold War-style faction conflict back into WoW, only for them to go utterly “nah bro”, WoW is all about friendship, inclusion and peace now.

I just want to be able to hate the Orcs and Forsaken on my Humans and Elves without being made out to be a evil bastard for thinking so! And vice verse, I want to be able to hate the NElves and Humans on my Orc!

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From what I´ve seen and what Booksmart said, it´s just the player character. Joseph´s text doesn´t refer to orcs that are in the city, but rather orcs in general.

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lmao, I just reread it, and the < > part confirms what you and Booksmart say! I stand corrected! Although I would not be suprised if Stromgarde ends up being accesible for both factions, though!
(Although we would be rid of the horrible Warfront-weekly-phasing Arathi, finally)

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As it stands, it’s not even accessible, really, to anyone besides humans. For some reason, post-questline, the Merran Loyalists stick around. They’re level 80s and attack anyone non-human in groups.

Did my best to show the new Stromgarde RP experience: https://i.imgur.com/z3IdBJs.gif
Wish I could embed this :')

(And yes, they’re in the usually ‘safe’ part of Stromgarde too, in all the spots people are usually RPing.)

Unfortunately, the Stromic seem to have kept some of that human supremacy post-questline :sob:

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Not to be God’s strongest Pessimist or anything but this 11.1.7 advertising feels strongly false-adverty. The overview describes a branching narrative that differs for Horde and Alliance around halfway in - this just straight up doesn’t happen, you both get the exact same quests and dialogue minus a few npc edits depending on whether you’re Horde or Alliance. Having Faerin suddenly comment about really liking the Horde’s vibe and feeling a close kinship with the Orcs vs her own people is also very… odd. We really don’t need a “Human Light Empire joins the Horde” narrative to devalue the 1% of the Horde’s identity that’s actually left at this point.

It starts off with Danath, Gey’arah and Faerin receiving words about tensions reviving in Arathi, and naturally of course this is a good opportunity for Faerin to come tag along and see her ancient homeland - sure, fair enough, makes total sense I don’t have an issue with any of this introduction. Threats back home need to be dealt with so external threats can take precedent. The most dangerous enemies to a society always dwell within its borders.

But once we get to Arathi proper we get a neat little cinematic of Faerin taking in the awe of being there, the history of Thoradin’s Wall and Danath (who only a few years ago was yelling racial slurs from the walls of Stromgarde in BfA like the Light’s strongest racist) takes the entire cinematic to beat down on Faerin and demean her having any sort of awe or pride in the history. He mopes about the legacy of Strom, the warrior-kings and their ways and seems so utterly repulsed by his own people, heritage and culture that it just comes off as really stilted and weird. He’s the King of Stromgarde, there’s no reason not to have pride in Stromic culture overall.

We continue then into the Defias captivity of the farms external to Stromgarde, they’ve somehow managed to take all this territory and Ar’gorok uncontested despite the presence of not only Hammerfall and Strom’s soldiers, but the 7th Legion and Kor’Kron too. This makes all 4 seem incredibly incompetent to be unable to secure and hold their own capital territories in a time of peace. An unfathomable chain of blunders would logically have been required for this. We learn that these Defias are in league with the Syndicate and Scarlet Crusade (2 of these are not Human supremacist groups and one is even a multi-racial Legion cult, but we’ll get back to this issue later). This raises immediate questions:

  1. How did the Defias get up here and why?
  2. How did they manage to team up with Scarlets and Syndicalists?
  3. How did these 3 ideologically-opposed parties come to a consensual agreement?
  4. What caused the Defias and Syndicalists to suddenly take a radical, Human supremacist ideological stance where they previously had never expressed any such sentiments and, in fact, the total opposite for 20 years.
  5. How did the combined forces and strategical ability of the Horde and Alliance, the 7th Legion and Kor’Kron Elite of the Horde and Alliance no less, fail to handle this issue on such a severe level? Immediately, you conclude that it must be some form of high-level executional and administrative erring that’s allowed these 3 groups to gain a hold in a heartland Kingdom of the Alliance. We never receive an actual answer.

After dealing with the Defias at the farms we learn that they’re attacking trade and supply convoys to-and-through the territory. Excellent addition. This explains how this group is self-sustaining itself, and it explains the recent unrest within the City of Stromgarde. People are starving, they think there’s a famine because no food is getting into the City and all they’ve heard is that Orcish weapons and armour are always found at the scenes of the crime. Perfect. There’s minor quibblings you could have about the logistics of this, but it works in a self-contained bubble.

Now, big dilemma going into Stromgarde. Joseph the Insane, now Joseph the Redeemed, a Scarlet reformer, is sitting atop the Altar of Kings in full Elite Scarlet Regalia and Tabard and is loudly lambasting non-Humans for the woes that Stromgarde is facing. You, as the Horde or Alliance (this questline elaborates that either can be deputised, and that citizens can apparently be considered “officially sanctioned” to exist in either faction) must grant Joseph the Writ of Desist to silence him.

First Major Incident: Why are we handing a Scarlet Crusader, in full armour and tabard inside the city somehow, nothing more than a writ to “desist his hate speech”. I am sorry, but this is so deeply and profusely American that it sends my spinal chord into a shudder. Every other instance of a Scarlet Crusader is dealt with by immediate execution, why is this different? Why does the Alliance now let one just openly chill in their city spouting religious fervor? What caused this sudden change in Alliance policy? How did none of the Guards or 7th Legiond deal with this way before now? In fact, the Stromgarde Corporal even acts like he can’t deal with it, which is utterly absurd, a deputy is still far lower in the Chain-of-Command (yes, even during peace-time) than a Corporal would be. As far as we know the Alliance also doesn’t maintain any 21st century concept of differentiating Military and Police. They’re always depicted interchangeably.

To make matters worse, not only did the Red Dawn take the external farms of Stromgarde but they wiped clean Refuge Point in a complete massacre. It’s just baffling, I understand they try to explain this away with “oh well… people were in Khaz Algar, we didn’t have the manpower” but… there’s still clearly a lot of soldiers walking around lmfao, you’re telling me your professional armies, backed by the 7th Legion and Kor’Kron got… completely wiped by bandits using out-dated arms despite your Mages, Shamans and Siege Weapons all just chilling in this zone? Uh, sure, whatever.

Later on we’re moved over to Hammerfall to uncover what’s happened to Danath and bump into Eitrigg and Kargah who is Thrall’s AU Cousin. We learn that the Orcs have taken in Human refugees for the time being to help try and alleviate the crisis in the Highlands. This makes sense at a cursory glance as an allievment effort. I don’t have much to say about this part other than I would personally just prefer Alliance and Horde dealt with their issues separately. I’m not overly-interested in “officially-sanctioned” dissolution of the two biggest players in Azerothian politics and lore down to it just being which colour you prefer.

I can’t help but wonder where the Defilers and MU Orcs are though. Mag’har feel so utterly out of place for this entire problem. They have no heritage, culture or tradition on Azeroth like the MU Orcs do. They don’t understand the history and tension between Humanity and the Orcs, particularly in a place like Hammerfall. They’re just entirely unconnected and it makes their involvement feel heavily stilted.

Not only this but at the very end Danath just lets Marran go and lets her supporters stick around, as seen above. They’re a group with an extremely violent and intolerant ideology. No matter what you think it is the stupidest course of action possible to give what may as well be official state sanction to their beliefs and views by letting them all just stay and attack people on-sight. I cannot fathom in what world Danath is living. Even Karl Popper, Gods strongest Liberal, was incredibly clear that groups unwilling to concede to rationality must be opposed and silenced with force.

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at this point i cannot tell if this would be the worst thing ever or genuinely the funniest thing ever. we had the alteraci sitting right there who would have made a shred of sense.

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Without knowing much about the North community at the moment, I think that Argent Dawn is most likely going to ignore this and stick to the BFA phase. I don’t imagine that many people on this server are going to be particularly interested in roleplaying this out.