PTR Spoiler/Discussion Thread (Part 3)

Argent Dawn
683

I must admit I fail to see what difference is other than being a difference in terminology, it serves the same plot point.

The Titans are no more caretakers than an absentee Father is a father.
One of the biggest plot points of the Titans has always been their absence, leaving mortal races abroad as well as those from inhouse to deal with their failing systems and designated Keepers of Azeroth to fill in the blanks.

I personally find that people have a tendency to ascribe morality, Good or Bad, to the Titans through the actions of their Keepers as though the Titans have a P.O.V. and approve of their directives.

Take this latest plot point: Two Earthern sub-factions come together and destroy a console, a Titan Guardian wakes as a result and goes to quite likely just follow its directive as it has been created with. - It doesn’t have a POV of the history, of everything that occurred up until that point other than “Something has gone wrong. Must destroy.” which has been a reoccurring plot point throughout many facilities.

I just don’t see how this plot point is inconsistent, you can argue we’ve maybe seen it one too many times but not inconsistent.

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684

Chronicle reconfirmed it with the stone troggs be the first of the second gen titanforged that came after the watchers/keepers.

685

Wait, so what are Troggs now? Titanic creations or degenerated Earthen?

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686

Schrodinger’s Lore

Maybe I am just a really grouchy boomer about all this new stuff. There hasn’t been any sort of lore addition I’ve liked for going on a decade now. Am I the Old Man yelling at clouds begging for things to go back to being better?

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687

The titans made the first generation of titanforged and made them from the materials of Azeroth, these are the watchers, 9 of the watchers were empowered by the titans to become the keepers, so Odyn, Loken etc. These battled the black empire and when the black empire was defeated and the old gods captured they made the forge of wills and forge of origination. They then used them to make the second generation of titanforged to actually order the planet, the first attempt at a second gen titanforged was the stone troggs, which they then locked away deep under the earth before creating the earthen, mogu, giants, vrykul etc.

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688

heh, oke I didn’t know the Troggs predated the other Titanforged races and we’re actually created as… Troggs.

Always thought the Lore was that they were degenerated Earthen!

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689

Could you cite all ten different interview sources?

Even if you can, there are several degrees of separation between this instance and the Titans themselves, as is the case with Algalon and Ulduar.

The Earthen are breaking a console that contains the Edicts, which ensure that new or reawakened Earthen think and feel according to the desired parameters of the Titans.
The destruction of the console triggers a Titanic safeguard, a colossal construct that threatens to wipe out the installation, likely because the console’s destruction means that the installation has been compromised by the enemy.
The Titans are not personally involved in this and they have no way of knowing that the console is actually being broken because the Edicts are a limiting factor that will hinder them in the war to come, and that the breaking of them will allow for the unification of their people.
Sort of like how the Titans had no way of knowing that mortal forces could actually defend a world like Azeroth on their own and that there was no need for the likes of Algalon to serve as a safeguard, wiping entire planets clean of life in order to prevent the corruption of the Void from burying its tentacles too deeply into them.

All of this backlash is just against the WIP description of the in-game cinematic, which ends with “the Titans don’t take kindly to disobedience,” and we’ll need to see if that’s actually reflected in the cinematic at all or if it’s just a bit of flavour text from the quest writer.

The Titans themselves can still be driven by positive goals and they can still regard Azeroth’s denizens as their children, while the likes of Uldir and Algalon and Uldaman and Odyn and Ra-den and the many other smaller instances of Titanic safeguards and creations causing problems for Azeroth can still be a thing.

This does kind of confirm my suspicion that this isn’t about consistency, as you have several different people pointing out how this is consistent with Titanic representation throughout WoW’s history.

Instead, the issue is that you interpret it as modern generational “everything is ambiguous shades of grey” storytelling, therefore it’s bad, regardless of the actual precedent and consistency of the Titans being written this way for decades. Let’s stop fighting over “consistency” when the issue is clearly a kneejerk reaction against what is perceived as modern writing, and modern writing bad.

My bad, thanks for the correction.

Though the Lore Keeper of Norgannon insists that troggs are degenerated earthen, the more recent and more established lore is that troggs are a defective type of Titanforged. So, the legend turns out to actually be true, despite the Lore Keeper of Norgannon in Uldaman refuting it.

It’s probably a case of writers misremembering lore and perceiving the legend as the truth, but it’s been made canon now, so there’s no changing that.

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690

People, generally speaking, aren’t silly enough to not realise why Blizzard is doing it this time around - by all means I could be wrong in 8 years time but when we’re here in 8 years time I am 99.99%-repeating certain that I will in fact be uttering the dreaded “I told you so” when it comes down to it. Dragonflight features archaeology that suggests the Void, Legion and Titans have worked together at several different instances to the point where they’ve found archaeological artefacts bearing the language of all three on different sides; now to anyone with sense this makes absolutely no sense given all previous lore we have at our disposal that is, at the moment, objective in its account of Azerothian and Cosmic history in the Warcraft franchise.

The attempts by Blizzard of late to deconstruct and demoralise their mythologies and theologies is not a secret to even the most blind, dogmatic Shill of Blizzard Entertainment, its a constant source of discourse and debate in the community and its evident that the recent writings are trying to continue steering ahead for Danuser’s nihilistic, r/atheist approach to worldbuilding, theology and mythology.

I would highly suggest reading up on Queteron’s thread on the matter as it offers a much more thorough and dissected view and reasonings as to why this is a problem

691

Ten years puts us back at WoD’s release, give or take a few months. No matter how many big or little bugbears there are with the content since then, nothing at all you’ve liked?

No matter how much I dislike an expac there’s always something I can pick out that I’ve liked. Yes, even Shadowlands.

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692

Apparently MoP came out in 2012 so I am now going to say a decade and 2 years* (oh my God it has been 12 years since MoP came out).

Not really, not in comparison to what I liked from WC2, WC3, Vanilla-WotLK, Pandaria. The lore has felt increasingly nihilistic ever since and everything they add seems to either retcon or take away from pre-existing lore nowadays. I guess seeing Draenor before it was Chernobyl’d was. . .alright?

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693

Having read your and Demoniac and others view on this… I’ve changed my mind… I just let my view on the Keepers(whom are, mostly, good guys) also interfere with my view of the Titans, since I saw the Keepers as a extension of their will, so to speak!

Keepers are involved alot more in the Warcraft setting, and the only times the Titans ever got involved was in Legion, and it was so save their own behinds and their ordered universe, by allowing us to help them imprison Sargeras.

BUT on a side note, I feel as if the writers are putting to much emphasis on the Titans being a darker shade of gray, while trying to force in a view that the Black Empire maybe was not all that bad as it was made out to be. There is a real dissonance there between what we know and has been established about the Black Empire and what I feel the writers sometimes try to convince us of. All in all, while the Titans might be mostly uninvolved and uncaring about what happens to their ordered Worlds, they are still the better alternative to the Black Empire, no matter how much they try to shove Aman’thul’s temper tantrum about a tree as being one of the ultimate :poop: moves ever made and he is on par with the Black Empire now which wasn’t that bad really.

Yes, the safeguards they put in places make them look like :poop:heads, but its not that they know what happens in the entire universe, so some failsafes might not work as as they inted to do, as you stated, Algelon and the giant construct in Khaz Algar are prime examples of this!

Lets not overstate it, Azeroth has always been in a weird place, where the Worldsoul of the planet is probably one of the strongest and I doubt most other world(soul)s could stand a chance against 1, let alone 5 Old Gods!

on a side note; I am always a big fan of the benevolent Gods-trope, so I will always vouch for divine being sticking up for mortals, where it makes sense! (Elune admitting the Night Elves are her favored Children being in my top 5 cinematics, even if it was from Shadowlands)

I suppose you could argue that the aeons have played mindtricks on the Lore Keeper of Norgannon :smirk:

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694

-Glances in-
… What the heck-

Dissected brain reasoning, maybe. Again, what?

Edit: That has actually given me psychic damage. Are they purposefully ignoring that ‘quasi Christian’ themes were out the window by WC3, when they did away with the generic Church stuff from the WC2 days?

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695

There was actually a lot of ‘Christian’ themes that were central to all parts of Warcraft 3’s story and the worldbuilding of Vanilla.

696

If you ignore all the non-specific, the Greek, the Norse themes, etc etc, sure? I mean, since Vanilla the Titan and Keeper designs have been adamantly not Judaic.

Edit: Also Christianity absolutely does not have a monopoly on Generic Good/Moral themes, for that matter.

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697

Suppose the Church itself, and the Knights of the Silver Hand(Knights Templars?) are still linked to the old days of Warcraft with Christian influences?

Its tenents also align very much with Christian valua’s(but also with the value’s of other religions like buddhism, etc)

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698

Its a lot more than that. The story beats of Warcraft 3 as a whole for both Arthas and Thrall mirror several different biblical stories almost 1:1. Also the fact that the Black Sheep (in this case Thrall) is rising to do good whilst the would-be Shepherd has turned from his flock (Arthas) is another neat little detail.

699

Yeah… I’m just going to say “Those are not stories or themes that are exclusive to Christianity, in the slightest” and leave it at that.

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700

If that’s the case, and these two storylines are nearly identical, why is the former liked and the current despised?

701

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that was probably because Sargeras literally killed them all.

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702

Aman’thul got mastery over time itself and still got owned by Sargeras lmao what was bro thinking???

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