PvE is harder than PvP (at least arenas)

Yeah I alluded to this earlier, which is why despite contending the “playing against AI in wow is harder than against players” (which I disagree with) I think the entire of the pve situation (which includes ai, scripts and environmental factors) can be just as challenging as pvp because ai does not perform their rotation suboptimally, nor do they err, delay, get out of position or several other errors players may make. On it’s own this isn’t bad, but when you throw in scripted hazards and affixes from the environment alongside punishing numbers (ie if you don’t kick this you die) it’s a very different story.

PvP is certainly harder if we assume every human being plays 100% optimally 100% of the time, but if that were true, certain matchups would never end because they’d stalemate. We know this to be false, because games end in such matchup situations, which means that “misplays” happen frequently which reduces the burden load on the opposing player (in that their optimal play is rewarded with a win, or they can now get away with suboptimal play themselves and not lose).

With high end M+ for example, this isn’t the case, as suboptimal play isn’t matched by your opponent as it were, so if you make a mistake, it is usually punished with failure. So it becomes very much a game of “how well can you deal with the script? And if we add x variation with weekly affix?” and whilst in theory a human could learn every script and perform them every week perfectly, can we say that groups are regularly composed of players whom can all maintain that standard? i don’t think we can. If it were true, everyone would be able to time 15s atm after an evening of reading wowhead guides or whatever.

It’s like reading about driving a car, and driving a car. Technically speaking (assuming everyone else obeys the rules of the road) a driving experience will follow a script if you follow a set route. Despite this reading about taking that journey does not equip you to make that journey if you have never done it before.
Now throw in variations (affixes) such as roadworks every third junction, police cars requiring you to pull over every minute and being faced with bicycle processions every motorway, it’s the same story. reading about dealing with and dealing with it in the moment are quite different because we, as humans, can err.

‘Mobs’ accommodate for mistakes a lot more than high-end players in pvp do.

The meaning of what is considered a ‘mistake’ is pretty different in the 2 modes aswell. PvE demands you to accomplish a predetermined sequence of actions, whereas PvP demands you to read and react to shifting parameters accordingly, that don’t necessarily have a predetermined, set in stone “correct answer” per se.

1 Like

Comparing apples to oranges here

PvE requires great consistent execution and proper knowledge of the fight to perfectly time everything

PvP requires you to adapt to the current situation at hand and whoever is better at thinking faster on their feet wins

I understand why people always come up with this, but in practice it’s not true.

In practice, deviation to the sequencing comes from shoring up deficiencies of your peers, and even then the range of what you can feasibly do is pretty limited, because bosses (and many normie NPCs) are immune to CC, or hit too hard on non-tanks.

1 Like

Not? Ever seen the World’s First race? They just try to figure out how to deal with certain abilities to continue. Figured one out? Then they just progressed another % or two or even a phase. Wiped? No worries, they now have that part on farm due to having learned how to counter a now known ability.

Now this is a bit simplified, but that’s exactly how it is.

MDI? We literally, and I mean literally, watch groups of players execute their homework.

In PvP it’s pretty much the same, just in a different way.

I had M+ in mind. I think raid bosses are pretty different and work more like a choregraphy.

(putting it down to the conversation because people replied. Just want to make sure this is seen aswell)

And this isn’t true either. Even though I understand why people may come to such ideas.

Regardless of what you’re doing (pve, pvp, pets…) there is always a policy that determines the best action to take for a given situation.
So, for every situation that can exist in world of warcraft, there is always an optimal action to take, or in other words a “set in stone correct answer”.

What might happen, however, is that reading the full situation may be difficult for a human being who don’t have millisecond time reactions unlike computers. The “don’t necessarily have a predetermined set in stone correct answer” comes from the incomplete information. And you have incomplete information, because you’re a human.
Btw, I’m talking specifically about this computer game here. This does not apply to games where the information is incomplete or to situations with unknown variables.

But those ‘best actions’, in PvP are abstract, only when you reduce the complexities sufficiently does it become more of a predetermined sequence, which is why Legion-BFA class design was so maligned, and even then, I’d say that 3v3 in particular was always complex enough to never get fully “solved” in a manner that a PvE encounter would be.

im not sure if this thread is trolling or serious comparing pve with pvp and saying pve is harder lol.
in pve u have plenty of guides about what is going to happen, and u have addons like dbm/bigwigs or whatever to tell u when its gonna happen while pvp is mostly random.
its not like bosses would randomly switch to the dps to cc and burst them.
if bosses start to do alot of dmg its usually either bound to time or hp treshold and the group is prepared with raid/heal cds for it.
not to mention that in pve if u are outgearing the bosses u can most likely ignore or skip some mechanics. in pvp when u outgear ur opponents the odds are in ur favor, but if u play stupid ull still lose.

I’m not exactly sure what you mean with “abstract” here. In my language, an abstract action would mean that it’s not perfectly known. For example, “stand up” is an abstract action, because simply saying “stand up” does not tell you if you must stand up on one leg or two legs, if you must use your hands to help maintain balance while standing up, or how much weight you must put on one foot or the other.

So, regarding our discussion an “abstract best action” would mean something like: there are in fact two or more different actions but they are somehow similar since we classified them as a single “abstract best action”. And I guess that given the situation, the policy would tell you “any of these actions are good to take”.
Not sure that’s what you meant, though.

Regarding the predetermined sequence, you don’t have a full description of a pvp fight in arena, for example. Because humans make mistakes, and these mistakes deviate from the optimal play. But the optimal play can certainly be determined to a point that you can probably tell something like: given that both teams perfectly play, team A will always win, because X. X being the composition of the team, the gear, or anything.
Not completely true in SL, as they added some variation in the damage dealt by abilities (sinister strike does not always deal exactly the same amount I mean).

So, you don’t have the full sequence. But you have shorter sequences and also a policy that tells you what sequence you should apply given the situation.
And with these two combines, you finally have a tree of decisions (pretty much like the kind of tree you get with minmax algorithm). And the tree contains the sequence that will be played.

Inherently, it’s not so different than a “predetermined sequence”. Neither are harder or easier.

What could makes it harder is the possible chaos that could come from misplays, but that only makes it harder for the players who misplay. It makes it easier for players who benefit from the misplay of their opponents.

Enough talk for now, I feel like I’m beginning to think out loud and turning in circles.

Good that you mention that, because I wanted to add something about incomplete information earlier, and I almost forgot.

Using addons like dbm, bigwigs, littlewigs, weakauras, etc… Certainly helps you, as a human, because it shows essential information in a pretty efficient way.

But so does addons like battlegroundenemies, and any addons/weakaura that tracks players’ cooldowns.
For example, part of why convoke the spirits is “hard to use” in pvp is because it could be interrupted quite easily. But when you have an addon that literally tells you “ok, convoke now, because all their interrupts/CC are on CD”, where’s the difficulty ?

Maybe the game gives us too much information regarding what’s going on.

This is not a very strong argument. If you outgear a boss in PvE, you still can die if you play stupid.

As in, the solution for any given problem is not a predetermined, perfect solution.

Except that people don’t play perfectly ever. 2v2 as a bracket may be limited enough that you can in some matchups, in theory at least, have a “perfect game that was completely predetermined in it’s outcome”, but that’s not feasible in a 3v3 because just adding 1 extra player on each team adds a layer of complexity that goes beyond a perfectly solveable encounter.

Perfect answers, in a given moment do exist, but those are always a response to a situation that stems from decisionmaking, not a codifiable scenario that you ‘just learn and execute on’.

It’s kinda like saying that poker is a solved game because “the highest value hand will just win”.

You can’t make that analogy with poker, because poker is not a game with complete information.

World of warcraft is a game with complete information. Regardless of what you do. At least, if you disregard crit chance and variation of damage reintroduced in SL.

You can add 10000 players to the mix, you can still find a perfect game that will gives you the answer who’s going to win, given that these players are basically perfect players.
But, they are humans, they’re not perfect players. They make mistakes, these mistakes are opportunities for their opponents (in PvP) or a direct punishment (in PvE).

In a sense, you can argue that because of this, PvE is harder, because if you make one mistake, it’s a garanteed wipe, whereas if you make a mistake in PvP, your opponent still have to take the opportunity. But he can also misplays and miss the opportunity. So, the mistake you did (in PvP) can be less punitive, in the end.

But it’s not a game with “complete information”, because so much of outcomes rely on positioning, which is in a constant flux.

F.ex. You can’t know to save your stun to lock someone behind a pillar if you don’t know he’s going to overextend behind it.

Depends. If I do a suboptimal rotation, which would be a mistake, but the npc dies, I made a mistake and got away with it. And that’s also what compounds to the idea of PvP problem solving being more abstract, you can do a thing you think of being correct for years and never put 2 and 2 together whenever the mistake is capitalized on. That’s not a scenario that really exists in a PvE in a meaningful way. If you make a mistake and wipe, you know the why and how.

It is. You know the positions of your character, allies and opponents. It’s displayed on the screen. What you don’t know is where they’re going to be next. But you don’t need that information to take a decision. There’s an optimal position for them to be next, and you take your decision based on this information. If they happen to have moved elsewhere, that’s a misplay.

Obviously. But so does for PvP. If you make a minor mistake in PvP or PvE, it doesn’t have a big influence, because it was minor. I wasn’t talking about these.

A lot of decisionmaking hinges on that. You can’t just dive a healer if he’s playing in a safe position.

An objectively “right position or right play” doesn’t exist in many scenarios though.

the difference is in pvp a minor mistake can already cost u the win. while in pve, especially if u outgear it u are allowed to make alot minor mistakes. also pve gets easier over the time with all the nerfs to bosses and the possibility to outgear.

Then it’s a major mistake, not a minor one.

Both require skill, just a different one. Same as comparing football and basketball - same ball, but completely different skill sets required. Or sprinters vs 10km runners - they are both running, but in completely different ways. And neither group are better or worse.
Same with pvp and m+ - they are both hard in their ways, just requires different skills from a player. One is more reactive, other is about planning and endurance. I had few horrible experiences in m+ taking pvp players (as well as good ones), same as pvp players have had good and horrible experience taking pve players into lets say RBG.
If one group thinks they are “better” than other - they are snowflakes.

A single not interupted spell in pve can cost timing a key. It’s also minor mistake, yet very costly.
Plus if gear matter that much and content gets easier - why people still struggle to kill scripted N’zoth on mythic?
For pvp you need fast reactive skillset, while pve is about staying calm and focused for a long time (endurance).