Be that as it may, it’s a very bizarre analogy to bring up in response in a thread where you’re arguing that scripted content is harder than unscripted content because it invariably creates the impression that you’re trying to argue as if that may be a reason why you think this is the case.
I mean granted the dude made a generic statement, but it was on the tailend of a comment about wow. So I think it’s safe to assume he meant “if u say playing vs a computer its harder than playing against other people…(in wow)” as opposed to assuming he was talking about wow at the start of the sentence and then randomly just made a sweeping statement about the performance of AI against humans in general at the end of the sentence. I mean he even said people (implied; many) rather than person, so i fail to see how you bringing up the notion of a single player playing against a single AI is even relevant to his comment if we did assume it was meant in a general sense (which as said, i think is a strange assumption anyway).
Either way, my point stands. AI in wow in nothing like AI in chess games so whether one is sophisticated has no bearing on the other whatsoever so he’s completely within rights to claim that playing against AI in wow is easier than playing against people in WoW which is in all probabiltiy what he meant, even if playing against AI in chess is harder.
In BFA I done for first time any high end PVE and mythic +15 was just easy, once I failed, next time I knew what to do.
Im playing on and off since early tbc and PVP only, nothing high, tons of random bgs and wpvp as casual fella and somehow this season I feel like I will have massive problem to reach 2400 rating in arena, most likely I wont.
Tbh BFA+15s was very easy, it’s not a good comparison, we overgeared it badly. And difficulty vise 15’s better compare to 1800-2000. 2400 is more to 20’s+.
What gives challange on m+:
changing affixes and their interactions with mobs/bosses. You can faceroll 15 on one combo, and struggle badly on another.
overlaps
timer (going up to 17-20 - timer is your enemy, and it forces to do more risky pulls, which means more overlaps)
basically anything will 1shot you.
proper CD management and planning.
full concentration whole run - this one forces most mistakes, when we relax for a moment and get punished
Same could be told with arenas - when you overgear your oponents, you will stomp them no matter what amazing tactics they pull off (like timing 15s with 220ilvl vs 190ilvl). As much as I hate it - gear is the name of the game (as it always been), up until players are in equal gear.
I casualy do some pvp in BGs from time to time (my ilvl is 218), and I can easily stomp 2-3 low geared 20k hp player just with starfall/dots and kiting (which is as pve mode as it gets). Heck, even had cases where 4 melee sat on me, they killed me but each ended up with 10-20% hp left (hiting thorns while being doted and starfalled omegalul).
But then again, arena is about counters, having consistent team, communication, playing meta classes.
I find arenas really boring. They’re fun to play for maybe an hour a week but if I want to play something that requires skill I will always choose dota over wow pvp.
If you enter an arena and expect +4 level of difficulty (to continue on your analogy) but randomly get +14 instead, it means the matchmaking system failed at its job, since it was supposed to provide you with a +4.
I insist on the “randomly” because you don’t see what you’re going to face until you enter. And you also make it sound it’s very random, in your previous post.
Then, regarding the “less skill dependant” comment, it doesn’t matter which side you are.
If you’re the guy expecting a +4 and getting a +14, you get stomped, and it’s not skill that decided whether you won or not.
If you’re the guy expecting a +14 and got a +4, you stomp, and it’s not skill that decided whether you won or not.
Ergo, not skill based, in these situations.
Around 2000 rating you will play against same geared players, if will meet some with low gear, then bravo, players are skilled there to climb that high.Arena you can’t outgear much after let’s say 2k rating.
I haven’t done 15+ this expansion, cos I’m not forced to do it, so I won’t talk about it.
I always thought arenas are more skilled then any scripted NPC.
But it’s depends from player, seems like.
You actually have to be very flexible on that ‘scripted’ content. You don’t know who has to deal with the mechanics, which means you always have to do stuff different and prepare for weird situations. Including affixes like quaking. People get murdered in 1 global out of nothing.
That reminds me times when we say “that’s a pvp boi” when we comment on a player who keeps moving left/right while dpsing and getting in all the void zones.
That depends on which players you’re playing against in WoW. Same as it’s “which AI” you’re playing against, in keys I have to approach every pull differently depending on affixes and key level even though it’s still just a program.
Either way these discussions are always pointless because some people are good at PvP, some are good at PvE and some are good at both. All content needs different skillsets to complete at higher levels of play.
This ^. It’s absurd to compare things that require completely different skillsets, and getting to the highest level is tremendously hard in both pve and pvp anyway.
I think this comes down to what you’re calling AI and what you’re not.
I don’t disagree you have to approach each pull differently dependant on affixes and composition, but in that situation imo it is not the mob behaviour (the AI) that is causing the variation, it is other factors such as players and affixes which cause you to change your behaviour.
The mobs themselves do not behave different regardless of whether you are a DH or a paladin or whether it’s a volcanic week or a necrotic week; therefore in this situation it is not the AI that is causing the difficulty, but rather it’s a certain combination of pseudo-chance factors onto the scripted situation that require it to be adjusted.
If the difficulty was purely in the AI, this would mean stuff like mobs purposefully focus targetting weak party members, CCing healers when they’re about to clutch and doing stuff like moving out of aoe or trying to bait you into affixes. But they don’t do that.
I do agree, I do think people over generalise how simple M+ is, it ain’t, but to me, that difficulty does not come from the Mob behaviour/AI so in that respect, playing against AI is easier than playing against players, however the environment in which you encounter the AI provides more challenges to the situation than does the environment in a PvP encounter- but that has nothing to do with the AI. Even if mobs are “a tricky pack” this has nothing to do with their behaviour and everything to do with their number tuning in combination with number tuning of a given affix combination, but their behaviour is still very simple - it’s just that their simple behaviour is still punishing to deal with because of the numbers they throw out.
M+ is about a solid execution with polish and being spatially aware.
PvP is more about adapting to the situation as it occurs “reading the fight” and exploiting windows.
Both different skillsets, both can be difficult to execute well and do the top-end in. A PvPer can say it’s easy because “mobs don’t behave randomly” but conversely we can take this and go “similarly mobs don’t make mistakes either”. In PvP it’s entirely possible your opponent can miss their kick, or misclick, a mob cannot do that. Each bring their own forms of challenge.
Oh yeah for sure, you could make the argument that bursting/necrotic/tyrannical/fortified etc. all counts as AI because it gets coded into the mobs at X or Y key level depending on the week. Just the same as you could make the argument that it’s not the AI that has that coded into it.
And this is what it all comes down to and why I think discussions like PvE vs PvP difficulty is stupid.
I agree with this, but there’s something people don’t consider when, while comparing pvp and pve, come to this argument regarding scripting.
In the case of world of warcraft, it’s probably better to talk about scripting instead of AI. Although, the term AI is already generally avoided in serious “AI” research because “what is AI exactly ?”
Usually, people have some idea about “how cool would that be if a computer could do that!”. And at first, it sounds like science fiction, so we say it is “AI”. Then, some dude realize that when you do this and that is allows you to do exactly that “cool idea” the original guy had. And at that point, we no longer say it’s “AI”, because “afterall, it’s just an algorithm like every other algorithm. There’s no magic”. Science fiction ends and science remains, basically.
Then, there’s also the fact that we’re more interested in doing stuff than endlessly discussing about what AI is or isn’t.
And it’s a term that’s too generic to be useful for any computer scientist. Anyway…
Regarding what I said in the first paragraph about scripting, PvP and adapting to the situation.
There is in fact an optimal policy in PvE and there is another one in PvP. Something that tells you “if this happens, then the best action to take is that one”.
This policy is somehow similar to a script. Or at least, it could be coded to be a script.
When in PvP a player take an action that is off this optimal policy, he’s playing suboptimally. In other words, he made a mistake. And that mistake lead to a situation where his opponents can take advantage of it.
There’s no such thing in PvE. Mobs don’t make mistakes. Environmental hazards don’t make mistakes either.
