WERE, not anymore
Until the high elf returns emphatically and boldly to the alliance we will have this argument.
I don’t mind void elves getting high elf skin tones and hair colours - afterall Telogrus rift shows both blood and high elves joining the ren’dorei in their native appearance.
The high elves officially returning as a nation with Silvermoon and Quel’thalas because the blood elves there decide they will return to their high elven identity by considering the period of mourning over as well as leave the horde would be the emphatic move the alliance needs to revitalise along with both the restoration of the kaldorei civilization, the void elves and the rest of the kaldorei.
The alliance needs it and could use it. The horde will also benefit by having it’s identity consolidated and restored into it’s own, without an alliance race propping it up.
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Err, No. Still -Are- Biologically identical. That is the lore to it. The Eye colour is just what happens to a Thalassian Elf exposed to Fel or not, whether a Blood Elf like Lanesh the Steelweaver who was never exposed to Fel and has blue eyes, or a High Elf like Auric Sunchaser, who when we first meet him has fel green eyes because he was in Outlands…
But that isn’t all you want is it…You want the things the sensible High Elf fans deny that people want…
There are no High Elf skin tones. High Elf is not yet a playable race. They are getting Blood Elf skin tones. Also, Telogrus shows us no such thing. It shows us Locus Walker teaching High and Blood Elves about -The Void-. It doesn’t show us some weird Mr Miyagi/Karate Kid montage where they become Void Elves, because Locus Walker doesn’t actually know how the Void Elves became what they are. He only knows the Alleria Method. He can’t teach them to turn into Void Elves. The only entity that could, is now dead.
It would poison the Alliance, and make them a disgraceful hive of selfishness that any self respecting person with a shred of decency would recoil from, rather than playing.
It would mark the death knell of the Alliance, as to play Alliance would then be a mark of shame.
The Horde has no Alliance races propping it up.
Bear in mind, that the High Elf supporters in this thread consider the views of people asking for Silvermoon and Quel’thalas and Horde Elf stuff to be the ‘lunatic fringe’ and not to be taken seriously, and the sort of people who damage the call for High Elves.
Is that what you came here to do? Damage the call for High Elves?
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There is another way that a High Elven group could come to the Alliance - complete with a capital city for the elves, that wouldn’t require the Horde to give up anything. How about a campaign to bring the remnants of the Shen’dralar into the fold, and reclaim Eldre’Thalas as a new alliance elven city in Kalimdor.
highelves were there b efore blood elves, so what is all about “givingup anything”? We asked highelves, they gave exiled blood elves…rofl.
no, they are now blood elves or void elves, We ask playable highelves such as silver covenant highelves.
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What?
I think everyone who reads what I said understands this, you are arguing a few replies up that blood elves are high elves, but all of a sudden, the skin tones aren’t high elven technically
You change what you say in a heartbeat to make your point which tells me yo are not interested about truth or finding solutions, just about being right, inflexible about changing your views because you are proud and once you’ve decided something by your logic, nothing else can sway you no matter what - it makes it more about you than about what iis.
Perhaps what Telogrus Rift shows you is that the ren’dorei are not just a race but also a faction, and you don’t have to be racially ren’dorei to be a part of them.
You don’t have to be racially ren’dorei to summon the void or wield it (ask shadow priests and Twilight cultists or shadowmoon orcs) - but ofc, according to you I’m totally wrong, I mean Alleria who’s not racially ren’dorei but is the founder and leader of “The Ren’dorei” is somehow non-existent.
No, Brigante, twisted logic won’t work here, there wasn’t anything wrong with me using the term “joining” the ren’dorei - and I don’t need to spend time in a useless debate to determine whether the high elves and blood elves in Telogrus Rift studying the void with the ren’dorei are not part of the faction.
I mean you do appreciate that sometimes races and factions bear the same name. The Night elves in WC3 and at the start of WoW were a classic example, it was both the name of the faction and the race, and the discovery of non faction night elves like the Shen’dralar Highborne, Cenarion Circle night elves, and later Moonguard, Farondis Highborne ghosts and Dreamwalker night elves all night elves racially that weren’t part of the faction “The Night Elves” we sometimes call Darnassians for clarity/distinction.
Where evidence exists that a race can also be a faction, we don’t spend endless arguments about it just to be disagreeable, it is what it is. Alleria is not racially a ren’dorei but she is Ren’dorei and the leader of the group that evidently contains racial ren’dorei and non-racial ren’dorei who are high elven wayfarers and blood elven scholars, joining the faction. - or wait you don’t like that term joining huh - would it be better if I said “clearly with” the faction instead of joining?
Such animosity and name calling for anyone who wants the high elves playable and believes that it is the right way forward - yet you see a 4488 strong reply (at time of writing) on a topic that has persisted through out the life time of wow brought up by countless Warcraft fans - regardless of what faction they play - and notably always challenged by a very small but persistent group of blood elf horde fans (yes I’m a blood elf fan, but not a horde fanatic loyalist - hence why I use the term blood elf horde fans) who take it upon themselves to oppose it like it’s the be all and end all - it just so happens many of that small group are the ones that enjoy rubbing it in the face of alliance players - which goes to show me their opposition is more about keeping their bragging rights and superiority complex than about doing what’s good for the game or saying what’s true or genuinely correct.
I’m sorry, but this opinion means nothing - you are telling tons of people that what they want and like is “disgraceful and selfish” and what is your proof for that - oh right, it’s not what you want - so it is disgraceful and selfish because you don’t want it.
If that’s the case, then it shouldn’t matter to you if the blood elves lose the high elven aspects to them. Clearly it won’t matter if what you say is true.
There is no “damage” to the call for high elves. This is not a campaign - or some sort of lobbying strategy.
This is a video game, not some petition rally for equal rights… sheesh - people are free to post their opinions and their desires. You are free to post that you don’t want high elves playable for whatever reason you have.
You state your opinion, and many times your number disagree with you, because in their opinion and their desire they do (but would be called selfish for it - yeh right).
If I want to wade in with my reasons why high elves should be playable, I am free to do so, - this is not about hurting a campaign, it’s just about sharing my views.
But why oppose it so vehemently - well I think it’s not only because you don’t want high elves playable really, but you probably fear that I do have a very good point about what’s going on with the game’s faction imbalance of players and thematic issues that are making the faction situation work badly. Because you know it’s right and it has a very valid point and you fear it may sway other players and even blizzard developers you are trying very hard to oppose it, except you aren’t coming up with anything substantial - because there isn’t, it’s genuinely a plausible strategy and makes a lot of sense and solve the very problems the walkthrough has highlighted.
Blizzard wants to wonder why factions mean far less now than before and why that authentic distinction between horde and alliance is lacking, making wow seem like it’s lost it’s heart? Look no further than putting a major alliance themed race and one of it’s most desired and popular ones, the high elves, on the horde! Effectively making the horde partially alliance, and whiles that may seem small in the major in game narrative, given the popularity amongst the players and the very prominent presentation of literally the best of the alliance (i.e. a very prominent and pretty city and zone )- well to be fair, more strictly speaking the best display of all the things the alliance is about (i.e. civilization, human like ideals, nobility, sense of right and wrong, concept of aesthetic beauty, arcane magic etc - all things that typically characterised by the alliance )- are presented in the best way on the horde rather than the alliance – off course its quite popular amongst the alliance crowd because it’s their cup of tea and the horde crowd fascinated with it need to ask themselves is it the horde they’re fascinated with or this alliance themed race - ie. the alliance that is present on the horde.
When you do this off course you dilute the meaning of the factions and people don’t care as much because they all seem the same - you homogenise them. You go to the horde, and it’s full of alliance themed high elves in the blood elves then alliance themed night elven civilization in the very kaldorei Highborne and kaldorei civilization themed Nightborne a night elf sub race. You undermine the entire faction system with this - people feel that thematically there is no difference or very little difference picking the alliance or the horde - and remove the heart of the factions from the factions themselves by doing this. Yet wonder why people keep asking to remove the factions or feel they mean nothing and that’s not the only problem…
No wonder the alliance keeps bleeding numbers to the horde with such an awesome display of the things it is about sitting prettier on the horde than they are on the alliance itself - where is the incentive to stay alliance when it’s theme is better portrayed and visible in a superior way on the horde? And you don’t agree that taking those themes back to sit only on the alliance won’t be a major boost to the alliance and solve the thematic and identity confusion on the horde? You don’t think one of the horde’s major problems, perhaps it’s biggest one and the heart of it’s soul crisis is that it has this alliance influence infesting it via a blood elf and nightborne race that are entirely based on the alliance races of high elves and night elves they are essentially faithful variants.
Off course the blood elves should lose Silvermoon, Quel’thalas, and the Nightborne lose Suramar and all things that feel , look, and are connected, themed and tied to the alliance about them - yes, all of it, and be developed into something unique and different. This would fix the horde, what will fix the alliance is if those things the blood elves and nightborne lose return emphatically to the alliance. Yes, all of Quel’thalas goes back to the alliance, and the blood elves who call it home call themselves high elves instead - so no they are not slaughtered by the alliance, they return to their roots, and their home with them.
Same with Suramar, who on the ground have kaldorei Moonguard, and druids like Farodin and the Val’Sharah refugees not to mention living in that very kaldorei culture with an Arcan’dor healing the corruption of the Nightwell, should it revert most of them back to their kaldorei forms, which many welcome but understandbly and statistically likely, some do not and those who don’t find a way to halt the transition to kaldorei in themselves magically so they can remain Nightborne in appearance. And it’s some of those that remain horde. While the rest? Well they love blood elves and most blood elves have become high elves, they also like the kaldorei highborne, the other high elves, the void elves… they find much more in common with Draenei, human wizards, gnomish intellectuals and dwarven scholars than they do orcs, trolls, tauren, goblin or creepy undead forsaken. Even if Tyrande for some illogical reason hates their guts (which she doesn’t) Please tell me why on earth those in Suramar will stay loyal to a horde that genocided most of the Darnassian night elven population in an unprovoked attack and went along with such orders gleefully in a bloodthirst attack that would chill any civilization and is in total contrast to their values which line up very well with the alliance -well any alliance minded civilization.
Do you see what we have here? Make no mistake, Suramar is very much alliance themed - the entire kaldorei civilization and pre-sundering empire is pretty much the zenith point of Azerothian civilization that is typified in the alliance - the alliance is themed around that sort of thing and those sort of people the humans and elves and dwarves are about, they are going to find far more in common with alliance races including their own kin - and before you complain that kaldorei druids hate them because of addiction, may I remind you it was kaldorei druids like Farodin that stuck with them to help them when they were addicted, to cure them, and that druids and priests from Val’sharah joined them and their efforts willingly when they were riddled with arcane corruption and addiction. So you think that all of a sudden Darnassian kaldorei (druids and priests) who accepted Shen’dralar Highborne back for little more than a request - wouldn’t do so to a nation of their kin who rose up to fight the Legion in their city and who have many of their island kin helping them?
Ofc not. What I’m showing you here, is how overwhelmingly in favour of the alliance both Quel’thalas and Suramar are because these places and the blood elves and Nightborne in them are entirely modelled on/after the high elves they use to call themselves and the night elves they are so proud of once being - they are not new philosophy new direction type of elves they are alliance based ones, and this is how they are written, so they are always going to be easier and more likely to be with the alliance in that format. And you must never forget this is intentional, blizzard wanted to put alliance on the horde. But it has problems and I don’t believe is any longer sustainable or necessary. The reason it happened was to bolster the horde numbers and make it more popular. It succeeded long ago in that, and continuing in that vein is hurting the alliance a lot more and other important factors like faction identity, theme, integrity, the very core of Warcraft they hold so dear and feel is what’s special about it. Yet keeping fancy high elves on the horde and night elves is actually hurting this. Is it worth it? When taking them back properly can solve so many problems?
Keeping them in the horde is the harder task from a narrative point of view, and blizz should make it easier for all of us by just moving them to the alliance and leaving a remnant on the horde they can mould into something else. This will help boost the alliance and fix the faction theme and identity issues that really are dulling the dividing edge the game is based on - or do you think it is out of nowhere that people think factions mean nothing? off course they would appear to mean nothing the more they feel the same … and this is what happens with high elves on the horde and night elven sub-race modelled 100% on night elf civilization dwells there.
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What I am showing and proving emphatically is that High elves NEED to be playable on the alliance, and not just covertly, but emphatically. The high elf kingdom needs to be restored to the alliance quite emphatically.
Listen:
The alliance needs this, the horde needs this, and the game needs this. It will fix a lot of problems, and heal a lot of issues. It may cause some disquiet in fans like you - i.e. the blood elf horde fan crowd - but you will love the end result and what the blood elves become if you don’t decide to switch to the alliance.
You see, you know this is nothing like when the blood elves were ripped from the alliance or when the Nightborne, a night elf sub race showing the coolest aspects of the kaldorei civilization were instead given to the horde - part of alliance fans anger were that these were alliance races with good stuff denied them and instead shunted to a horde that they didn’t belong.
There is no justification for the anger when they do return, because they are heavily themed on the alliance and have their people there in the high elves, void elves, and night elven groups (Highborne and others). You may be upset a little because you want them there, and even angry because you would have appeared to lose, but it will fade so quickly because it will fit right and feel right. And you know it won’t be that bad because, you will still have the models to play with on the horde as some blood elves and Nightborne will remain…furthermore the alliance is not getting anything new it doesn’t already have.
High elves are already alliance and always were throughout wow, Night elves, both pre-sundering minded Highborne and long vigil type druids and hunters have also been on the alliance too, so their city of origin, Suramar returning with Nightborne healed to night elven appearances is no where near the shock factor that the reverse was. (i.e. That giving the Night elf sub race to the horde was or giving the high elf group called blood elves to the horde were.
And the truth about it, most of you horde elf fan bois are alliance players that switched over, you only stick to the alliance aspects of the horde, you’d be fine in the end with Quel’thalas and Suramar and most of their npc populace returning, and you aren’t losing blood elves playable on the horde either if you absolutely refuse to.
This move will be a HUGE win for everyone, even if it may not seem like that to you at first… Just trust me.
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I’m no Einstein, but I’m pretty sure Suramar and Quel’thelas moving Alliance won’t make everyone happy. In fact it will anger the community. I don’t know from where you get this idea.
Yes, the High elves who continue to call themselves High elves have been loyal to the Alliance from the beginning. And that is why we got High elven customizations for our Void elves.
But that is exactly it… High elves are exiled similar to the Void elves. We can’t go back and claim Quel’thelas for the Alliance lol.
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Doesn’t mean it won’t be a huge win. There are many times that some of the best changes and improvements had fierce opposition or the directed towards them, this changed to dramatically over time as people saw the results of them.
I said it would be a huge win for everyone, not that everyone would be happy with it. in fact several times i pointed out that players like Brigante, the blood elf horde fan bois base, won’t like it at first, but they’ll come round and may find that many things improve for them on both sides.
on the horde side because of what it would open the door for blood elves to become, develop and playa much larger role in the horde now no longer being alliance themed, or on the alliance should they choose to move there because all the things they love about the blood elves i.e. the high elven kingdom, lifestyle, character, countenance, assets, style, fantasy - would be on full display on the alliance.
Indeed, and doing more than that would make more of an impact, right now it seems just some small concession here and there, but what blizzard really need to do, is come out LARGE with the high elves, and night elves - no more elves in exile on the alliance, the alliance is about elves and humans etc, all that high elf stuff is alliance based and themed, and it’s pulling alliance players horde and making the horde a mixture of horde and alliance - it’s really working against their “core of Warcraft” ideal and is the very reason why factions don’t seem to mean much to most players, because the horde and alliance are so similar - and we have high elves on the horde being the biggest contributor with night elves on the horde adding to it when the nightborne went over.
Now make a big show, not small slight changes, have the high elves return emphatically by those blood elves in Silvermoon ending their mourning and identifying as high elves again, and voila, make a big show of it, a rebuilt Silvermoon, and healed Quel’thalas now in the blue colours, make the playing population see an even cooler version of the high elves and that it is on the alliance now - blood elves will still be playable on the horde, but they would now be the remnant and this would give them motivation to change into something that is not allinacey or alliance themed, which to be honest I feel it would be much better that horde races are not alliance themed in any way. It’s good for the alliance, and it’s good for the horde.
If you like the high elven civilization and kingdom, it’s fantasy - alliance is where you should be going, same with the Kaldorei and their version of it, it’s alliance themed, Suramar should be on the alliance with the other night elven Highborne, and the kaldorei long vigil lot - those are alliance - the druids and priests bring a unique element to the alliance even though they are not originally alliance themed -but that’s acceptable, they should do similar to the blood elves that remain on the horde, give them a unique theme that’s not alliance based.
We won’t be going back to claim it, the only way this works is if the blood elves in Quel’thalas choose to identify themselves as high elves.
it’s quite plausible from where I stand, given all the horde has done, and how very different these blood elves are to the horde.
you see it would have required a bit more work and imagination if the blood elves in Quel’thalas had actually changed into the type of bad boys they seemed to be going in TFT, a route they decided to isolate the Kael’thas followers as and turn em evil, they did this to keep the blood elves very high elven, and that’s exactly why it is so easy for these guys to just return to being called high elves.
They haven’t changed in their high elven character and nature at all, and that nature is very opposite to the horde and very similar to the many alliance races, namely the kaldorei, especially the Highborne kaldorei, the void elves, the humans, the draenei.
I’m sorry, by keeping them so high elven, these blood elves have always been more alliance than horde, and not integrated into the horde or changed in character - and this was intentional, blizzard wanted an alliance race on the horde, they didn’t want just pretty human models, but the alliance concept to lure alliance players to the horde to populate it.
It’s funny, because now it’s the opposite that is required, it is the horde that is unacceptable majority with alliance bleeding numbers to it to an extent that is destabilising it, and they’ve made it very easy to reverse by keeping the blood elves so alliance themed, in Silvermoon , and the Nightborne in Suramar in very kaldorei civilization which is alliance themed too, it’s so simple to bring them back to the alliance… it writes itself (so to speak)
But what we should be looking at is the impact it would have, it would draw those alliance horde elf fans back, just as it lured them from the alliance, and if only 1/5 of them move over, it is enough to fix the imbalance…
What the alliance needs is inspiration , and excitement, and nothing will do that more than the return of the high elves and the restoration of the kaldorei. The night elves in WC3 and WoTA were an epic race with great accomplishments spanning the arcane, nature, the divine and fel (demon hunters) - epic, only to be constantly nerfed and ignored in wow to boost the horde.
Restore that along with the high elves, and you give the alliance back the tow elven races it’s members were most excited about. And while you may argue that the races are already there, they are, but who’s going to be excited with them in that state? nerfed, refugees, with the best of their race on the other faction - all the assets, most of the population, on the other faction and that lot are far too alliance in character and presentation - and they’ve kept that way, it’s like the alliance has colonies on the horde - the elves of Quel’thalas and Suramar have not changed from their high elven nature nor their kaldorei civilization character at all, which will always make them feel alliance, and be more affiliated to it.
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wow great post. thank you.
they belong to alliance or elves, Horde? they have nothing in common in elves.
That was back in Vanilla when alliance was 70% and Horde was 30%. So horde was the underfaction. However, despite this they did very good In Pvp.
So in BC Blood elves was given to Horde to help balance the population, which it did in BC.
However later on the Horde overpopulate the alliance so high elf customizations was given to Alliance.
It’s a long time ago so they won’t make the switch again. We already have High elves and Void elves in the alliance playable
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Alliance aren’t getting Silvermoon or Suramar.
If you want the Alliance Elves to be interesting, they need to become their own thing - distant from the Nightborne and Blood Elves.
Void Elves are actually a good addition in terms of being former Blood Elves, but not following the faith of the Light.
You’re asking for Silvermoon in your other thread, in -this- thread however, High Elf Fans have previously been saying “No High Elf fans actually want to take Silvermoon from the Blood Elves, no one sensible anyway” Hence my statement. “You want the things the sensible High Elf fans deny that people want”.
Oddly, your statement is correct, even though it was not what I was driving at. Because of the fact that we are indeed dealing with computer programming here, then -yes- technically the skin tones aren’t High elven, as they were only introduced when Blizz did the coding for Blood Elves.
Which is it?
Seriously, which is it, it can’t be my views on High Elves being playable on Alliance, which are “Sure, go for it, here’s some good ideas, have you considered X as a potential racial, Y as a starting zone and Z as other important High Elf NPC’s”
As you would find if you delved deeper into this topic.
I’ve never been anti-Helf. I’m personally ambiguous on the matter, but have tried to be supportive of those who want sensible things, and have made suggestions to back them up, but equally have always rejected the nonsensical requests and things that make no sense.
That is called ‘Being consistent’ on the subject.
Interesting idea, so your premise is that the Ren’dorei would be an aggregate of -Actual- Ren’dorei, so the original survivors of the magical accident and are Void Elves, and of ‘Normal’ Thalassian Elves who follow the beliefs of the Void. That …is interesting, and would go a long way to explaining why an otherwise tiny number of Elves were deemed an asset, if they actually have a cult following as well.
I rather like that idea…I can see one flaw in it, actually, it is more like a problem to be considered, rather than a flaw. If the Ren’dorei are a concept, a faction, and not an actual race, then how come only Elves are talking to Locus Walker, given that the ‘dorei’ bit in Ren’dorei just means ‘Children’ then wouldn’t that apply to any learning from him, or is there some distinctly Elven ‘take’ on the Void, which would prevent other races from successfully understanding the cult?
Interesting premise though.
You can’t make a suggestion and then say you don’t have time to discuss it. You only just made it clear what you meant in the same post as saying that! As you can see, I find the idea intriguing, so I haven’t even debated it!
Yes, but no one had ever made that suggestion about the Ren’dorei, only previously describing ‘Ren’dorei’ as the name of specifically Void Elves. Heck even Blizzard don’t make that suggestion, hence the names of those mobs are not Ren’dorei Acolyte/Student/whatever, but Silvermoon Scholar, and High Elf Wayfarer.
That is why I was like ‘Nope, they are not joining the Ren’dorei, because the Ren’dorei as referenced by Blizz are a closed shop now, no new ones can be created’
However if we go by your premise of it being more like a cult, rather than Ren’dorei being the actual descriptor of Void Elves, then it is very possible, yes.
It would have been better to have used that term in the first place, to avoid the misunderstanding that ensued, yes. Joining a race implies becoming that race (which is impossible) Joining a Cult named -after- a race however, is perfectly possible. As you can see, I actually find the latter suggestion intriguing. I think we can chalk that up to a misunderstanding of wording.
I don’t have animosity towards the Alliance and its players (Which would involve some pretty interesting mental gymnastics and self loathing) -Yet-.
I would have if your suggestions in the other thread came to fruition though, I would indeed hold those views, and I’d be right.
I’m actually ambivalent on the idea of playable High Elves. I wouldn’t roll one myself, I can (and do) play LOTRO if I want my goodie Elf jag, I prefer WoW for my more ‘realistic’ depiction of Elves from myth and legend.
Besides, I have a couple of Blood Elves, a Nightborne, a Kaldorei, no, two Kaldorei, and a Void Elf, thats enough Elf for me…
So I don’t -want- them playable as such, I don’t -care- whether they are however, so I don’t -Not want- them playable. I just want them, if implemented to be along the lines of what the majority of High Elf Fans want, and not what we shall term gently ‘extreme High Elf Fans’ want, which sadly, is the element you belong to in your desire for Silvermoon to be given to the High Elves.
Read up on this thread. People agree with my suggestions. They decry yours as ‘ridiculous, and not what sensible Helf fans want’
That should pretty much signal where I am on this matter.
And yeah, there have been loads of people who have just turned up and saying “Ion said No! Ha Ha!” which is just childish behaviour. It is perfectly possible for Blizzard to implement High Elves as a playable option for Alliance, without detracting from the Blood Elves. I think they were striving towards that with making Void Elves possible to look like High Elves, but they sort of stumbled at the last hurdle. If they had given the Void Elves Blonde option as well as the Blood Elf looking skin colour, I doubt this thread would even exist, except for confused people who don’t even want High Elves playable, but just Silver Covenant playable. (Don’t try to explain how that is an Oxymoron, they just won’t get it 
)
What, I am telling a -few- people, not even the majority of Helf fans, but those that even the Helf fans have dubbed the ‘lunatic fringe’ that what they want is disgraceful and selfish?
Why yes, I surely am.
You are only the second Helf fan in this entire thread who has made the ridiculous suggestion that the High Elves should get Silvermoon. The first time someone did all the Helf fans were like “Are you insane! That would doom our cause, that just won’t happen, shouldn’t happen, and is pretty damned inconsiderate”
So actually, it’s the other way around. Majority of folks around this thread agree with me…
Which would mean the Blood Elves losing nothing at all, because they are High Elves who call themselves Blood Elves. Or do you have some weird idea that there is a difference bar politics and learning to eat meat between a Blood Elf and a High Elf? Or do you mean moral aspects, so by losing High Elven aspects you mean losing Irreverence, cowardice and disloyalty to the Homeland? 
A Joke, but you see what I mean…
Actually, a lot of people have referred to it in just those terms, and I don’t actually see the harm in them referring to it that way, it is a campaign, to get in game playable High Elves, so 10% of the original Thalassian population. They are lobbying people, I mean that is what this thread is, and to be honest, to start with, it was successful, ideas were being thrown around, and sensible discussions had as to how it could work, and what wouldn’t work.
Which I have not posted, because as i say, i am not against the idea.
Well OK, you’re wrong on that. As I say, I am ambivalent, neither for nor against, but as a fan of Elves in general I involve myself in the discussion and make suggestions.
I don’t fear that you have a good point at all. Because I am utterly convinced that you do not have a good point, and this is simply fuelled by your historical grudge against Horde getting Elves. Your suggestion would not improve this. It would make it so much worse.
Your essential conceit is that Blood Elven stuff and Nightborne stuff somehow dilute the Horde. Anyone who understands the Horde beyond “It’s all about sweat, dressing like you’ve from from a BDSM club and Waaaagh!” knows that this simply is not the case. You think they are essentially Alliance assets, which is -ridiculous- as one of those races was part of the Alliance for -1- year, and may I add, not even -This- version of the Alliance, and the other race was -never- part of Either version of the Alliance.
That is what you are basing this on. So what is the conclusion?
WoW lore simply is not important to you. Now anyone who, like myself, has been in this thread from the start, will know that the lore is important to me, and that I will always upbraid both Pro and anti-Helf people, if they are talking twaddle.
Nothing in Lore makes Thalassian Elves inherently an Alliance asset. Even -Less- so for the Shal’dorei.
This means you are reaching for your belief that they are an Alliance ‘thing’ to other settings. We all know which one.
Which is fine, but don’t keep stating that because a different fantasy setting does things X way, means that it should work X way in a different fantasy setting. That makes no sense. Star Wars is at heart a fantasy setting, Does that mean that in WoW the Light is The Force, and that Paladins are actually Jedi?
No, of course not! You don’t transplant external settings into WoW, WoW is it’s own setting.
In that setting, Blood Elves have no Alliance assets and are not Alliance linked. Nightborne most -certainly- are not Alliance linked. That is the lore, of the setting, and that is what matters.
Oh I really won’t. trust me on this. I will not come round to it, and it will only detract from my gaming experience. I mean that’s the only reason Blood Elves appealed in the first place. “Yesss! Someone doing Elves -Right!-”
I won’t come round at all, so there is no ‘at first’ because frankly, if they ruin Elves by making them a copy/paste of generic ‘Humans and Pals’ Elves, I will simply lose all interest in this game, and I know, from the Silvermoon Discord for Argent Dawn Blood Elf players, that I am by no means alone in this matter. Nobody there actually minds Alliance players getting to play the 10% of the species. Everyone there would not play Alliance High Elves, because it is Blood Elves how they are that interest them. Many of them share my view, They’d just unsub if Blizz tried anything like that.
So really, your suggestion is not improving anything. It would just cost subs, it would turn WoW into generic ‘Human and pals’ cookie cutter game, and remove the actual RP from the game. Where’s the RP in that? Where’s the challenge? A large part of the appeal of Blood Elf and Nightborne RP is that you have these two species, who are not essentially -evil- per se, but are tethered by political necessity, or the atrocities of the enemy to a faction that occasionally spawns absolute monsters like Garrosh or Sylvanas, the Sheer RP that stems from that kind of conflict is beautiful to take part in.
As opposed to “I love being a good guy.” “Yes, I too love being a good guy” “Shall we ask the Elves if they want to be good guys again?” “Yaaay!”
Ok, the above was facetious, but you get my point. Blood Elves and Nightborne are more interesting where they are, to most who play them. Certainly the roleplayers who play them, and if you want to throw that element of the playerbase under the bus, then be cautious. RP’ers are constant subbers, because they make their own content when Raiders and PvP’ers have gotten bored and unsubbed until the next Raid or PvP season starts.
Umm, you do know who is giving the Orders in the Horde right now, given that the others are in the Shadowlands right?, the only one of the Triumvirate who formed the Horde Council who was not taken.
I’d say the Blood Elves already have a pretty large role in the Horde.
-Tolkien- themed, let us be fair and call it as it is. in Wow’s lore and setting, they are not ‘Alliance themed’ at all. You want external fantasy system lore imposed on WoW lore. Let us be honest.
Yeah the Kingdom bit. Got ruined didn’t it. Quite famously so, as anyone who is a fan of Elves could tell you. Fortunately, the Blood Elves, as in the Thalassians who called themselves Blood Elves, rebuilt it with the power of their Magisters, thus creating the glorious -Blood Elven- city of Silvermoon from the ruins. Lifestyle? They learned to eat meat and not be Vegan? That is essentially the only lifestyle choice, and it is a -choice- Draining Mana from living creatures is not an inherent ability, it has to be learned. So a dietary choice. Aside from that, Lifestyle very much stays the same, as we see in the Blood Elf starting zone, some people like Lord Saltheril just want to carry on like they always did when High Elves.
Character? Umm, right, so …you know that of like, the Blood Elf NPC’s, almost all of them (Children’s week and that one in Stonetalon notwithstanding) are adults, which means that all of them will have been who they were -before- the Scourge, and -Before- Kael’thas renamed them Blood Elves.
Or do you imagine that the sheer act of renaming people changes their character? That…isn’t how it works. Especially when the process is voluntary. So people like Lor’themar, Rommath, Aethas, Liadrin, Halduron, the player character Blood Elf, are all the same character as before the ‘rebranding’.
Countenance. Hmm, Many more Blood Elves will have green eyes, than the number of High Elves who have green eyes, but then eye colour is not a reliable way of telling the difference between the two political groups anyway, and as we see, it can and does shift, regardless of whether you shout for a weird sigil on red or a golden lion on blue. Auric Sunchaser is a good example, first time we meet him in Terrokar on Outlands, he is a good high elf boss, doing good High Elf alliance things. with Fel-green eyes, because he is exposed to Fel, because he is like, fighting demons!
Much later, when we see him, the green has faded, and his eyes are blue again.
The only potential chance in countenance would be those who -did- actively drain Fel (so a small tiny miniscule number of Elves, like, really, really small) who may have gotten a -slightly- more tanned or ruddy complexion. This is because we see in game what happens to Thalassian Elves who gorge on Fel energy, they become Felblood Elves. Thats ‘Felblood Elves’ not ‘Fel Blood Elves’ It happens to High Elves too. Their skin turns red, they get horns and vestigial wings, in fact, just check out Selin Fireheart, he’s a good example.
So yeah, Countenance isn’t really gonna change.
Assets? That doesn’t really make sense, what do you mean? The City? Yeah, Legitimately rebuilt by the Blood Elves, with Zero High Elf involvement, they can go and do one if they think they are entitled to it. The Kingdom of Quel’thalas? Yeah, retaken by the Blood Elves, with Zero High Elf involvement, they can go and do one if they think they are entitled to it.
The Throne of Quel’thalas?
The High Elves have no claimant to the throne. Not one. No, the Windrunners do not count. They were never even part of the Noble Council. Alleria and Vereesa have precisely as much claim to the throne of Silvermoon as the player character Blood Elf, who has exactly as much claim to the throne of Silvermoon as Jerom’e the drunkard/thistlehead who potters around the bridge near the Shepherd’s Gate.
One person has the Legitimate claim. That person will not invoke it. Lor’themar Theron is the legitimate ruler of Quel’thalas, and even the High Elves recognise that fact.
He could sit on the throne tomorrow and proclaim himself the Sun King, and nothing would legally stop him, and he would in fact be entirely right to do so.
But because he is a good leader, he realises that -that- is what Quel’thalas needs, a good -leader- not a good -ruler-.
Style? Well, blue is somewhat out of fashion, though not totally, The head of the Entire military of Quel’thalas, the Ranger-General Halduron Brightwing, is still rocking his blue armour, and neither Lor’themar or Rommath have an issue with this.
(On a complete tangent, good to see that the leaders of Silvermoon are obeying Covid rules. Rommath is wearing a face mask, however Lor’themar and Halduron are not, however they are both Farstriders, who apparently are the most physically robust of Elves and don’t catch diseases ) Sorry, couldn’t resist…
Nothing about the style has changed…
Fantasy? What do you mean by this? Do you mean the WoW fantasy OR do you mean a different setting’s fantasy?
Because you really do seem to be confusing the two…
How does that even work! “Yeah, we’re totally cool with the High Elves again, oh, what, You Silver Covenant, you tortured and murdered some of my friends who were innocent of doing anything? Yeah, totally down with you homie, say, that Jaina? Yeah, she’s a war criminal who killed a lot of our people, but I guess it is OK, I sure don’t bear a grudge”
How ridiculous.
To be fair, they’d have to, as Rommath’s Magisters would just walk away, click their fingers, and Boom. Rubble. Silvermoon is a magical city, if those who created it went “nope” then it would just instantly collapse.
I mean, it would be an effective way of getting rid of the High Elf population I suppose. A bit extreme, but in fairness, if something as ridiculous as that was happening I can totally see Rommath and co going “Right, is that all of them, are they all in the City now?” “Yes, Grand Magister, there is a lot of revelry about how they have retaken Silvermoon”
“Cool, Lets revoke -our- magics”
distant implosion
“Yep, complete success Grand Magister, city levelled, no survivors”
"Right, lets go and remagic it -again!-
"I Want, I want, I want. " That is all you have to offer. You don’t care about Elves at all, or their WoW lore, you just want them all on Alliance, and for the Horde ones to be changed, Go on, give us a whirl, What changes would you see that keep the Blood Elves and Nightborne as they are? You must have some ideas, surely, else you would not have suggested this?
Who would be an embarrassment to play.
Who would plummet in numbers as people just unsub in disgust (which may be your cunning plan to balance numbers. I’m not sure a faction suicide cult is the way to do that…)
Which means it works by the Fantasy setting’s rules! And no other Fantasy settings rules…
Ah, right, so you …don’t actually care about the fantasy element then? Because the Wow Fantasy element is that Elves and humans were kind of distant buddies, but nothing special, then this one time they worked together, and taught humans magic, was pretty cool. Then this second time they signed an alliance, but that ended badly, the humans made some dumb decisions, and then there was this racist guy who was actually at this point declaring active war against the elves (Because attacking a head of state, as the ranking commander in place counts as that!) and then other Alliance races attacked us too, which was super uncool. So we left them, and found better friends, then after a while, this maniac took over, and he forced everyone else out, apart from us, well, us and the Goblins, and then he started sending our people out on all the really dangerous missions, as arrow fodder, so our boss phoned the Alliance boss and went “Yo, King Alliance, how about we talk about us coming and joining you, because this guy is a douche?”
And King Alliance goes “Heck yeah, we’d love to have you back!”
“Awesome, so lets…wait a minute, what the Hecking Heck is going on in Dalaran?”
King Alliance spends a few minutes, facepalms and goes. “OK, Boss Blood Elf, that wasn’t our doing, that wasn’t our orders, that was…are you still there?”
Dead tone continues over the phone as the other party has hung up
Fast forward a couple of years, and Dead Alliance King’s Son, now the new Alliance King, sends a Void Suicide Bomber to visit Silvermoon.
“Oh, by the way, King Alliance want’s you to come to the Alliance again, it would be cool, right, you had these talks with his dad.”
“Yeah, we did, and look what happened, but I have something to show you”
“OK”
Boss blood elf extends his hand, a fist with palm upwards, and makes ratcheting movements with his other hand, slowly his middle finger raises and points at the Void Suicide bomber.
“There is your answer.”
That, in comedic form is pretty much the Elven/human story.
In -this- setting.
I support High Elves in this Setting.
I do not support those who want to take away Horde assets in this setting.
The Alliance Elves need their own jam, not to steal from others.
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Well said Jakafo I’m really glad you chose not to compromise for just black hair despite that you like them. We need some light hair colours for Void Elves (inc at least 1 blonde shade) otherwise just give the Alliance the High Elves they asked for.
It’s going to take more than just giving customisations. Why does the alliance seem so lame? Why are the best presentation of alliance themed races and civilization present on the horde?
This is problematic. It took more than just pretty models to attract people to the horde when the blood elves came. They restored and made as beautiful and aliiancey as possible, the kingdom of Quel’thalas, they made the best alliance kingdom in the lore, the high elven one (at that time anyway) be displayed fully on the horde.
I think they need more than just duplicating the models… I think they need powerful and compelling stories, they need to make the alliance shine brightly and be alluring. Be desirable. And have the best things the alliance has best on the alliance. Which includes the high elves - then they can build the blood elves into something different including giving them features and model options that make them look different as they divorce them from that alliance theme and make them unique (whether it’s more horde like or something unique like the Forsaken and Pandaren are, unique like the Naga, San’layn and Venthyr are.
People who play the game and see the story they present should want to join the alliance, because they love that high elf fantasy and the fantasy of the night elves, the fantasy of the dwarves and that of the draenei - this is what is Alliance - it’s what it is themed upon. You can’t have that fantasy sitting on the horde and expect the same results to favour the alliance - it just would tear and fracture and keep fractured that alliance theme loving community and constantly tempt them horde. And you can’t look small.
I can assure you the horde can survive and survive well without their blood elves having pretty high elven civilization kingdom and culture, and can certainly survive without having the night elven sub-race have Suramar in it and the lands.
Tel a story that brings the NPC blood elves in Quel’thalas and NPC nightborne population along with Suramar back to the alliance, make a big show of it, write a great story that show cases the high elves back on the alliance, the Night elves working in unity both Highborne and pre-sundering aspects with the long vigil revived aspects
Show them in the fullness of all the things the alliance has… it needs to look attractive, it needs to regain the influence and be a place that people want to call home. Not every type of person, just those that love the sort of things the alliance is made up of.
And you want people attracted to the horde too, we don’t want the horde depleted or secondary, but powerful and attractive but in it’s own way … not needing to rely on alliance high elves being on it in a very alliance way or co-opting the night elf civilization too… no, but for being different and unique from the alliance, not just in player models, but in theme, aesthetics, character - every horde races should be distinctively different from the alliance… (I’m not talking model appearances - but character and theme, although models help) and to that effect, the blood elves must move away from being high elves completely and so must the Nightborne. They will keep the model and share it with the high elves, but their new development will give them cool features and open up new customisations that will make them look more distinctive to match their very different character if players want to use them (they’ll be free to look like a vanilla high elf if they want too - because they have the model ) but the blood elves themselves would have become something very different from high elves, and in 1-2 expansions when they give them new infrastructure and a new city it would have a non-high elven look - so it won’t look like Silvermoon - no more sharing alliance assets, it would have something different, cool, majestic even but different - if they could do that for elven sub-races like Naga, San’layn and Venthyr types they can certainly do it again.
But the high elves should come home, and make the alliance attractive and as desirable as it can be for being the alliance. This means we should get more than just skin tones and hair colours of the high elves accessible by players. We should get the whole high elf kingdom and peoples back. And we shouldn’t be afraid to admit it , and present our case and reasoning for it to other players, whether they agree with it or not.
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No matter how I look it at it - is it that bad to make high elves playable or void elves have Wayfarer and Scholar hair/skin tones? No
Is it that bad to have high elves playable? No
In fact - the opposite, it would be a very good thing both for the alliance and the horde, and the game if they went ahead with doing this.
they need to identify what the real problem with the factions is atm, and see the problem keeping the blood elves on the horde as high elves with high elven assets and mentality, high elven culture and kingdom, same with the Nightborne - this is problematic because these two races are on the horde as alliance races rather than developing into something different from the high elf and night elf.
Surely they can see how beneficial it would be if the best the alliance has to offer in game, thematically etc was actually present on the alliance rather than sitting on the horde under the blood elf banner and horde nightborne banner - surely they can see how this hurts the alliance and confuses the horde, homogenising the factions.
Surely they can see that the horde can thrive without blood elves holding Quel’thalas and having most of the NPCs there as high elves. Surely?! And it would be better for the horde if the blood elves were not so high elven, not so alliancey and didn’t have those alliance race themed heritage cities, and places.
The bigger problem now is actually blood elves and Nightborne on the horde as high elves with a different name and Night elven Highborne with a different name. Those horde elves need to feel horde, become something that is alien from the alliance and from the high elves and Night elven Highborne they are based on. That high elf and night elf Highborne stuff is alliance through and through - it may have been needed on the horde once upon a time, to boost horde numbers by luring alliance players over - but now, it’s the alliance that needs the numbers and the horde doesn’t need the alliance themes - it can do without them. It can keep blood elves but have them lose the high elven assets and themes, can keep Nightborne playable but lose the kaldorei civilization/empire assets and themes back to the alliance.
It could do with making the Orcs and other troll sub-races go the Zuldazar/Dazar’alor treatment, being majestic and prominent - it doesn’t need alliance elf stuff - it would be better building horde race stuff and letting the blood elves and nightborne that remain become something not alliance based.
I hope they have the courage.
That’s because it was never about reason or logic with them. They don’t want high elves playable or anything that looks blood elven currently on the horde to be on the alliance.
They never have, and they never will, they will oppose everything you ask for, no matter how reasonable it sounds or actually is, because it’s not about reason, logic or improving, they don’t want you to have it because they feel it is theirs (and by theirs the horde’s by their privilege) and theirs to keep, so you can’t have it.
These same people have been the ones very proud to have prettier things (as the alliance views them) than the alliance itself, it gives them a superiority complex and bragging rights as if it to say "suck it alliance fans, you think you’re all pretty and civilised but look we have even prettier and more civilised and you can’t have it, because it’s ours haha,…suck it - horde is better than alliance (not even factoring that the very thing they revel in and are proud in to make the horde better is actually alliance themed)) - like a jealous kid not wanting to share it’s toys and unable to see that their pride is sorely misplaced. Think about it, they’re proud the horde is better than the alliance because of the alliance themed assets and racial presentation it has, i.e. the high elves - that’s their motivation - proud of the horde because it has the alliance on it, not proud of the horde for being the horde with orcs, tauren or trolls - and blizzard can’t actually see why this is problematic.
It’s not about logic, or the bigger picture or what’s good for the game or solving issues delighting a larger portion of fans or fixing the alliance, it’s about them having the proverbial cake and keeping it and eating it. and they’ve taken it too far. The level of resistance and animosity towards any of us who so as dares to say that it is wrong to have blood elves on the horde or keep the alliance from having high elves, no matter how we explain and show logic… they wont have it
Because it’s not about doing what’s right or what’s best, it’s about keeping their fancies and not taking their toys away from them even though this is not what will actually happen. even though this would actually be a better solution for them in the long wrong, they are afraid of it, and their initial reaction is to oppose it. but because they are so stubborn, they are unable to look past their desires to even consider what you have to say.
So you instead have been reducing your “demands” as if you have to, as if this is some bargaining table with enemies that you have to try and win over… why you don’t, it isn’t a bargaining, it’s you expressing your desires and you have every right to.
You don’t have to lessen your desires or compromise on what you want just to appease them. They are not the decision makers nor are you in a war with them, you don’t have to let them dictate what you should desire or how you should express or diminish what you want. they are just other forum users who have their own desires and want to impose their will on you and dictate what you should even desire.
I’ve seen it happen with some people, they make it seem to you that you have no right to even desire something - who gave them that authority? To determine what you should like or what you should want to have? Do you not see it, the mere fact you desire this is what they want to snuff out, dictate what you should desire, what the wow community should desire, when it’s not their place and only because they don’t want it.
Well they can not want it all their like, they can not like it all they want. I will state what I want and what I think and desire, whether they like it or not, want it or not, and nothing they can say will stop me from voicing my opinion and thoughts, and desires on a forum that is expressly their for that purpose.
it’s called freedom of speech and I will not be harassed into silence or bullied nor will I change my desires to appease a group of people that have no interest in what I want and would oppose everything regardless of how much sense it makes and what logic there is to it.
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This is impossible, seeing as the vast majority of High Elves are Blood Elves. The amount of ‘High Elves’ alone won’t even fill out one section of Silvermoon City.
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To be honest…I think Kalibas has just managed to kill the High Elf cause, unfortunately, because he tried to make the lunatic fringe element as the High Elf fans call it on their discord, the ‘Actual request’.
Well played Kalibas, Well played. You killed the High Elf ideas. And there were so many good ideas going around!
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Im still waiting for the new dances ffs blizzard.
The Napoleon Dynamite Dance is getting a bit old, admittedly, and not really Elven
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