Question for anti-RDF people

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
181

I can. But then I will be at a disadvantage and the mere existence of RDF will diminish the efficiency of manual searching by taking more and more people out of the pool of people that would even bother.

And it fosters a culture within the game that I do want to avoid. It’s bad enough as it is. No reason to make it worse. Your argument is invalid.

Because going through hoops makes it so that we have an incentive to help each other out to go through less hoops. This helping each other out shapes our behaviour within the game. It rewards the outgoing community forming types and punishes the egoistic and selfish loners.

Yet with RDF you have one less incentive to even join a guild. Many will not even have a guild they can ask.

The chosen role is irrelevant. I merely mentioned it to avoid the silly argument of “Yes, but you are a tank and I am not…”

I choose my group members based on what names I like best and whether they have the little murloc sign next to them. I do not care about class, Gearscore or anything like that either.

“Getekeeping” is not inherently bad. Gatekeeping can be used for bad purposes. Gatekeeping known Ninjalooters, Gearscorefanatics, Egoistic loners and other kinds of players one does not want to play with from someone’s own group is not bad. Or do you advocate for forcing players to play with players they do not want to play with?

Then I must be a necromancer, because I can make it rise to do my bidding!!!

It does. A few nights ago I even just wrote a LFG Post in a funny way and got invited by someone to join their Discord. I then proceeded to have a voice chat for over 6 hours with that person. He is now occasionally joining our discord server just to chat.

Then there is no problem and we don’t need RDF.

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182

How does intentionally making things harder on yourself and your group make things better?

Okay, but the current situation doesn’t change that one bit?

Okay, but did I make that argument?

Good for you. Neither does RDF. Lots and lots of folks do though and I utterly loathe WoWhead for it’s stupid class rankings.

Okay, but this isn’t what gatekeeping is doing, like at all. Particularly on the ridiculously big servers we have currently.

No? Not even RDF does this, you’ll never ever get grouped with someone on your ignore list.

Sure Jan, sure. On fresh servers possible, on established ones no, they’re just not a thing.

Protip: conversations happen in RDF too.

There’s literally no difference.

And since we’ve had cross server battle.net invites since launch, literally nothing in your story would’ve changed. Not a thing.

There is a problem and we need RDF.

183

Why do you think Drill sergeants put their recruits through hardships?
To make them become a team. These hardships we are put through, are making us more of a team. Because we need each other to make things less hard on us.

It does. Having only players from your own server, makes it so you have to assume that you can play with a certain player again. That gives you an incentive to behave well. With RDF the amount of egoistic loners will increase, because their playstyle will no longer be punished by being inefficient. That will, over time, increase the amount of these players make up within the community.
With less loners and more players willing to even join a guild, your chance in heroics increases to find someone who is willing to play with you again or maybe even join your guild. It’s also incentivized to join a guild, because it makes it easier and more efficient to find groups more quickly.
With the RDF this incentive will be gone and even the people that are not necessarily loners per se, do no longer have an incentive to join a guild and have less opportunities to find people who have a guild they would like to join.
So yes, it does change the current situation.

No. I was only explaining, why I included that part.

RDF might “force” these people on me though. I may not choose for gearscore, but I choose to not take someone who demands a certain gearscore for heroics. I may not choose for class, but I will certainly not invite someone who does not even bother to respond to my question whether they want to join or not. RDF doesn’t do that.

It IS gatekeeping. It matches the definition on my book. But we can clarify what definitions we use. For me Gatekeeping means, that you keep someone from joining a group or community for any kind of reasons.
Not letting known criminals join the police force is a form of gatekeeping for me. But a good one.
Letting a black guy not join a sports team, simply for his skin color is also gatekeeping. But an example for bad gatekeeping.

But I do have other criteria. I can inquire about these criteria before I invite someone. I can not do so with the RDF. I can ask “Wanna join us? But our healer is rather new, so be warned!” and he can answer. Then I can, depending on his answer, decide whether I want him in the group or not. With RDF I get grouped up with people and only then can I ask about certain criteria. I would prefer to do that beforehand, not when I already am inside the dungeon.

They happen. But they will happen less, thanks to silent loners making up a bigger part of the community and they will have less of an effect thanks to not expecting to ever see that person again. They will most certainly not lead to an invitation to a guild.

You can’t play on another server by getting invited by someone through the battlenet… what are you talking about?

But you just said you have no problems finding groups, so where is the problem? That you can’t be as lazy? Or that not being lazy gets rewarded and your way of doing it does not get the same reward?

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184

No you wont, you will actually have even more advantage than you have now, you already have stable playerpool to pick from AND you will get instant ques from RDF …

Also hell no xDDD

185

That playerpool will diminish over time, since the community will change, less people will even know LFG-Chat exists and guilds will loose significance.

Recruiting in Dungeongroups, when I play with someone I find fun to play with, will also no longer be possible. So the advantage you are talking about is only very temporary and the disadvantages I am talking about will also still be there. No thanks.

Oh no! He brought up an example I can’t deny, that highlights how things actually work…

Hell yes.

186

And entire playerpool diminishes anyway since people either transfer to singular servers or stop playing altogether. Leaving those that stay less likely to be able to run non WotLK dungeons at all. And before you try counter it already happens. Over last two weeks Nethergarde Keep went from 2.5k+ horde players during peak to roughly 1.5k Horde players during peak. Guess which areas and zones will feel most desolate as a result.

Except your example with Drill sergeant doesn’t work in case of WotLK Classic Dungeons. Just because the process of making team is more tedious doesn’t mean there will be better co-operation. That would actually require putting hardship ahead of already formed group. Something that’s entirely independent of RDF. RDF and difficulty aren’t exclusive.

In fact existence of “fail state” groups doesn’t mean the system or dungeons are designed wrong. It means class balance is atrocious. Hell existence of such situations without RDF would be a bad thing as it would more or less lead to pushing underperformers out of the meta.

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I know. That’s why I am advocating for not making it worse.

Wrong. Because it is harder to form groups quickly, and effort is required, we are more likely to team up again with players we already played with. And there is your already formed group.

We overcome the hardship of building groups by teaming up with people we have teamed up with before. And that doesn’t even diminish that having to form a group yourself and putting in the work, will most likely keep you from leaving groups, when that means you have to do all that work again, instead of just pushing a button and sitting around for 15 more minutes with your hands down your pants.

188

People keep advocating RDF, but the likely reality is that plenty of people who played since WotLK Classic launched are just tired of running the same dungeons. Especially when they don’t need any loot. The overall pool of players wanting to run max level dungeons is rather small at this point.

A cross realm Dungeon Finder might be a lot more useful to provide groups for people leveling, because at this point, most realms just don’t have enough people on lower levels to form any dungeon groups.

Honestly, after using the current dungeon tool, it barely feels any different to me than RDF. We queue up for something, wait for other people to appear in the tool, say “Hi” to them, go to the dungeon, beat the dungeon, and go our own ways. There is nothing ‘social’ about it in most cases - all it does is draw out the group forming process.

189

By maintaining Status quo and making it harder and harder for people on low pop servers to find groups? Sounds counterproductive.

Not really no. At least I’ve yet to truly see it. You’re very unlikely to pair with same people during leveling simply because you’ll never fully synchronize your levels. Some will outpace you and will become too high of a level. Others will end up outpaced by you and before you know it you’ll be a liability for them. Seen it happen many times on both ends. Not a good feeling.

The only space when such thing will fully applies would be Heroics but even there it’s never guaranteed.

And yes even with the tool the groups that last longer than one run are not common from my point of view.

You’re not projecting are you? You realize that group formed via RDF can stick for few more runs solely because it’ll be faster to queue up again in same group?

190

Yeah, you just compared a 15 minute 5 man run in a 12 year old game with BEING TRAINED TO KILL PEOPLE.

I think we’re done here.

191

To add insult to injury, they now add a ‘mythic +’ system in some way by having the group be inside the dungeon and clicking a statue of sorts…

I don’t get why they still don’t implement RDF, but they do implement this atrocity to the game.

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192

If you think all a soldier learns is to kill people, you have no clue at all.

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193

I see you have no idea how classic came to be and just spew BS about streamers even though they only promoted the individuals who met with blizzard to facilitate the classic game.

Whether or not someone complained before, is irrelevant. Cause it wasnt them who met with Blizzard and got the era servers launched…

194

And you’re digging in with the comparison too.

195

The fact that you took the comparison and immediately made it about “killing”, when most soldiers today hasnt even wounded let alone killed another person is just jokes.

His analogy is completely reasonable, when you are rational individual, who doesnt go to extremes for no reason other than shifting the argument…

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196

You can see a similar thing in other less obvious things. There are team building trainings for companies. In which you play games with your colleagues that require for you all to work together to succeed. These games consist of an obstacle that you and your colleagues have to overcome and you can only do so by working together. I just used the most obvious comparison that no one would be stupid enough to deny.

But the same principle can be used on every aspect of life. Hurdles that can be overcome by working together, incentivise people to work together. At the same time overcoming a hurdle together builds comradery between people.

It’s a very simple thing. I just used an example of that principle so you can understand it better. The fact that you’re so focused on the example, not the principle, shows me that you are not focused on the discussion but focused on trying to discredit me so you can have your lazy RDF.

197

What servers are you talking about? The low pop serves got closed recently. But yes, I think the problem would be solved better if Blizzard would just split up all servers into servers the size of full servers back in the day. That would make it better, by incentivizing people even more to form guilds and fill up their FL and it will automatically create a server community again, because you will know a much larger portion of the people on your realm.

Of course this happens. But it also happens that you do synchronize somewhat. And the solution for the leveling stuff would’ve been to not offer boosts. I am not willing to damage the end game experience and accommodate laziness by adding a change that was caused by blizzard accomodating laziness and earning money with it.

And while it may not be common to do more dungeons with a same group using the tool, I can tell you it is VERY common to do more than one dungeon with the same few people you have on your Friends List or in your guild. This is what you should be aiming for. Even if you outpace other’s leveling or get outpaced. Make an effort and at max level you might have already found one Friend that you can do max level dungeons with. Or even raids.

So? What’s that got to do with anything?

198

I support bringing back RDF, but you asked a moot question.

Human nature being what it is, most people would use RDF if it were implemented, irrespective of whether or not they are for or against it. It’s human nature to seek instant gratification and take the path of least resistance.

If you lined up 10 people at random and showed them two platters, one containing a slab of chocolate and the other a piece of poached fish I all-but guarantee that the majority would choose the chocolate, despite the fact that the fish is objectively better for them in every way. It’s just that the chocolate offers instant gratification.

In the same way, RDF provides a quick, simple, effective method of farming badges, levelling up our characters, and saving a large chunk of time in the process. Few people could resist that, even the die-hard #noQOL people.

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199

And the people who could resist that, would rather leave the game.

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I am resisting the massive urge to just quote here all the antirdf people who reacted with “good riddance” to something like this xD