Raids are getting ridiculously complex

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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Has i watch the video for the upcoming bosses in the latest raid, i realise how far we have come. Everyone has to study these bosses like it’s heavy homework.

If you are leading a raid, you have to make notes and study the whole thing like it’s a written test. None of this is fun. It’s busy work.

Having been to other MMO’s, this is going a bit too crazy now. People want to play their classes and hit/heal things. Not manage multiple buffs, not kill things to use those buffs, having to do all sorts of dances at the same time, etc.
This reminds me how Mekkatorque is also a nightmare to run because of color blind people, and especially when you don’t have a fixed group or people who use mics.

I know i will be flamed for this, but idc. This is a message for the devs. It’s not fun to take hours to study raids before they come out. Dial it down a bit.

I know the “pros” will disagree. But this isn’t a job to me, it’s where i come to relax and have fun, and it’s getting difficult to do that.

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I was waching some Americans do this last night.

It looks about as fun as a colon examination. Just a laundry list of abilities and co-ordination and then one person can wipe the raid. I hate that kind of stuff.

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You act as if bosses like lady vash didn’t require hours upon hours of coordination.

We have 2 color blind people in our raid and neither of them has problems on that boss, though they had to setup some WAs that shows which icon has which color.

Those bosses are supposed to be at around the level of stormwall and jaina, what do you expect? If you want to just smash your buttons LFR got created exactly for that.

Furthermore, unless you are raidleading, just read up on the abilities that affect you, suddenly you only have to learn a 3rd of the fight…

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lol studying…players want you to study and watch youtube videos instead of enjoying, playing the game. if you would have a guild with relaxed raid environment, you would just go there and progress. most want the shortcut which doesnt work ;(

most bosses are the usual. mekka is a bit annoying. the following boss almost a entry boss XD

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Well It’s either more complex boss fights or back to the “gear check” loot pinatas.

“Congratulations your raid avoided all of the bosses two abilities and managed to dps down the boss before enrage timer!”

I sure don’t want to go back to the “gears and max output is all that matters” raiding style… At least now players can, even at mythic level(to a certain degree) focus more on mechanics over squeezing in more output and it still “function” but the fight just takes a bit longer.

In previous epansions… heck if you don’t have the output in the first place tactics didn’t matter you whould die to enrage even after perfect execution.

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That actually sounds like fun. I would prefer to have to focus on squeezing dps by playing my character well and gearing him up well than having to stop playing so the dances and special buttons can happen, as well as the wipe fests that will ensue.

Wich btw is also the council fight in Dazar’alor. How fun that is. I love not doing anything or just doing a crazy dance and pressing magic buttons so i can continue playing. The fights just aren’t fun. When i’m having to stop playing, it’s not fun. It’s annoying. If i want a puzzle game i will buy one.

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Which is why we have multiple difficulties… Normal barely has any mechanics, so that’s perfect for you :slight_smile:

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Dont worry OP. I saw the videos before tonights raid as well and thought this was going to be insanely hard. My guild raids once a week, (wednesdays), from 19-22. Now, even though were a very casual raid guild, we have experienced players who are also quite well geared. Needless to say, were a hc only guild. Well, we cleared the new mini raid in apx two hours, it was way easier than expected. If people respect the most important mechanics and are alert, it actually feels quite undertuned. Mythic difficulty might be a different matter though…

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I don’t mind that things are getting a bit harder, when I saw the vids, I also thought it looked very complicated.

The only problem I have with it is, that people expect you to know every freaking little detail, without ever having done the fight.

Do take in mind, these 2 bosses, should be consider normal end of raid bosses, not like the first few bosses of a raid that are push overs.

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There is lfr for poeple who just want to hit heal/dmf buttons and dont care about mechanics. And you still to get to see nice new visuals.

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dont know how the new raid is, not been there yet, but the problem I se whit some bosses is that abilities overlap so much, that some fights become almost RNG, to the extent it aint fun.

for example Council, the mechanics aint hard to learn, but when they start to overlap way to much, it becomes annoying, not realy fun at all and this is not what I would call good mechanics, it could have been done in an other way easily.

and Mecha, again learning the mechanics is not that hard, but when it decides that when you get the debuff, and then he does wormhole, what can happen after you already ran away, and then get pulled back, meening some classes have an horrid time to get back behind a rock in time, this fight could have been made just a tad easier buy, not making the people whit debuff get sucked in, and also remove the part where those who are smal can not get trampled on when they happen to run in to eachother, just smal things like that would make fights way more fun and not just annoying.

Blizzard is trying to make fights more complicated now, what in it self is a good thing, but there needs to a difference between dps bosses and mechanic bosses, and not have everything on at once, this makes things frustraiting, and also leads to some classes getting shafted more than others, due to they not being able to perform in seartain areas as the others can.

some one here said Lady Vasjh was hard and needed cordination, yes it did, but the fight it self was not to hard, becuse there was not much overlap at all or any for that matter, you had phases where you performed stuff, was it hitting her, or hitting mobs gathering stuff to destroy the pylons and then hitting her again, it made perfect sence, and was not a big mess some bosses are now due to you having to do 5 different things at once so to speak maby not realy 5 things but you get the point.

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this aint realy true, they have mechanics, par from some that aint there, and due to how little they hurt you wont notice them, what actualy make things harder when you enter heroic, due to it, becuse you realy do not need to learn the skills at all.

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But that overlap is every time, no RNG whatsoever.
Mecha in general is a fight that feels the same on every pull.
People just need to pay attention to the timer and not use their mobility before the wormhole is cast.

Jaina Mythic on the other hand has random spell orders in p1, sometimes you have to deal with 1 mechanic at a time and on other pulls 3 mechanics happen at the same time.
And in p2/p3 you can get sniped by RNG Icefalls during the storm.

On fetid you had a 30% chance to just get your whole pull ruined by RNG. And that is AFTER they changed the spawn points to be more fixed.

Kiting the tentacle dude, while moving/dodging lady vashs AoE while throwing Orbs while killing adds seems like a decent amount of overlap to me.
Or look at KT in TBC.
In P3 all minibosses respawn, you need to use your legendaries at the right times, then you get thrown into the air all while also dealing with normal boss mechanics.

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Took me quite some time to prepare the Heroic Crucible Raid last evening, but in the end we barely wiped and all guild members we’re happy with the clean kill. That is what makes it worth it in my opinion.

As the game is at the moment it seems that a wide array of mechanics on bosses is taking priority over the difficulty to play ones class.

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about Mecha, what you say is right, but this is assuming everyone realice or even manage to se does the wormhole come, on top of this, if someone happens to for any reason at all close to robot, and then wormhole comes, you can get insta stunned and many cases this is a wipe, there is RNG due to how it works, heck you can get a sheep or even robot right on you when you hide whit the debuff, and if unlucky you get stunned and sheep goes off, and again nothing you can do.

Lady Vasjh, yes there is lots of thigns to do, but at same time, you can assign people to areas and they deal whit that, what makes things way easier and actualy more fun, it aint like the bosses we have now, that you never know who gets what on them and where they happen to be at that point, this is pure RNG that can screw you over big time for no apparent reason at all, Lady Vasjh and KT had lots of stuff to do, but at same time, it made sence, you knew when and where the minibosses are and you knew how to deal whit them, did it take time to learn offcourse it did, but it felt rewarding, where bosses now, you feel ah nice finaly he died, but it doesnt feel rewarding at all, and this is due to how frustraiting some bosses are due to their mechanics, Jaina for example (only done normal still), even though there is lots of things to do, and the debuff offcourse to handle, but due to it having phases it makes things way more intresting and it is less rng also
ok Mecha has 2 phases or 3 depending oh you look at it, but again the fight becomes frustraiting instead of fun due to the mechanics.

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this is true, unfortunately this also screws over classes due to how they can perform on the bosses.

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Im sorry but this is ridiculous.

Council overlaps are easily controlled if you respect the fight and kill the adds at the correct time.

Mekka with the bomb is also easily controlled. Check your boss mod timer, got bomb and wormhole going off? Dont move or use your move speed increase until after wormhole.

Don’t blame Blizz for your bad play.

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Well, at least KT in p1 has one of the bosses focus a random player each 8(?) seconds.

In the end i liked progressing on mecha, because the boss has fixed timers. The only variable is who gets the bombs and who gets focused by worm hole.
You can see who gets the wormhole as soon as the cast goes off, if you all get ported on top of a bot, thats the fault of the player.
If you move with bombs when a wormhole is about to go off, it’s the players fault.
You can see the sheeps like 10 seconds before they explode on normal/hc and they always explode in the same way. If you get hit by that while dropping bombs, thats the players fault.

Jaina Mythic on the other hand has a bunch of RNG mechanics in P1 and P2 that make it frustrating to progress on.

And that’s a good thing. Because i am pretty sure that every member of our roster can play their class, there is only so much to learn about your rotation.

Back in the days a lot of the bosses were just not possible to do, without a certain level of gear.
A friend of mine was pretty hardcore during TBC and his guild was progressing MH and BT with some people still wearing blues.
They progressed illidan for weeks/months solely because they lacked the gear to kill him before the enrage timer.
I don’t think that’s engaging game design, coming from someone that thinks TBC is the best iteration of WoW.

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Funny I stumbled across this thread. Yesterday I remarked to my brother how much more difficult BoD is than Antorous. We don’t have a raid guild and form pugs using premade group finder. Boss fights are definitely becoming more sophisticated, and this isn’t always a good thing. The amount of organisation and communication required is getting difficult to satisfy in a pug.

Take Mekkatorque: the communication required to disable his bombs is something you’d expect in a mythic raid, not heroic. Voice communication shouldn’t be required or heroic. Of course it’s always better if you do use it, and that’s good, it this feels too much for me. For heroic you should really be able to use the buttons on your bomb to disable someone else’s bomb (depending on who you had targeted or whether this is auto targeted). It is going to be a nightmare for me to figure out how to pug this, even with everyone now 400+.

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Raids aren’t getting ridiculous; they were kinda boring and forgettable through Legion, and Uldir wasn’t very interesting, but BoD and Crucible are great so far.
You don’t need to research tactics, at all. I haven’t and my raid team hasn’t for any boss in forever; all it requires is a quick look through the journal, a check on what changes between difficulties, and then properly learning it by doing it.
Videos just tell you how someone else deals with a fight, but you should always work to develop your own way, that works for you.
Mekkatorque is one of my favourite fights this expansion because it genuinely forces you to communicate as a raid should. Everyone has to work together and it’s great, plus helps filter out the terrible pugs from the genuine well-constructed ones.
Crucible isn’t even that complicated, it just feels chaotic on the first couple of tries, but it’s deceptively simplistic.