The real problem is that the whole concept of the current MM design is retarded. Sniper class fantasy is just plain bullsh*t. You either do insane dps from insane range or from stealth and make people suffer because they just simply CAN NOT counter you or your dps is lowered so that your whole spec is unusable and does not make any sense. It is the same thing with sub. If sub has good damage it breaks the game, it is has ‘okay’ dps you are just better of playing an another spec…
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Did around the same number in old AV today, poor guy he didn’t understood what happened to him…
Bac I want to congratulate you to pull so much people in this thread, that you really believe what you say or not it’s still impressive how much aggro you get when posting. A true hunter for sure!
have you tried DH with 2-set bonus? 
Of course I mean everything I say. There would have been no point if I was not meaning it and just saying non-sense stuff like 90% of the people here do. I would have wasted my time for nothing, and I really appreciate my time and dont throw it away, ever. I have contributed high amounts of my costly hours here to tell the truth to misinformed people. That MM hunter is an endangered spieces with no meaningful defensives and self-heals. The moment someone touches them; its an instant death for them. That after sniper shot+burst leaving camo will immedietaly make alarm bells ring on people, and survive it with ease, and then connect to hunter and kill them as they dont have self heals and defensives. I have managed to convince most people here that we are free food and many have agreed here that we are free food to ZugZugs and UltraTankyCasters. The only class MM can beat is mage, barely. Heck, even mage 1v1 is a tough uphill battle with all their heals, blinks, alter, absorb and 2x ice block.
For example 1v1 duel in arena: We burst down feral and feral put bleeds on us, and hugs pillar at 20%hp and heals back to FULL health while we bleed to death and we HAVE NO CHANCE what so ever to get our health back. HOW is this fair?! How?! Where is the FAIRNESS in this game? And other hybrids as well, when they are low hp they hug pillar or the houses at AB or gilneas in BGs and heal back to FULL HEALTH and then go back to the poor hunter they left at 30% hp with no chance at getting their health back, and finish them off.
And tanky warriors, dks and locks with all their self heals even baked into their DMG abilities. Its not a fair game to us hunters to have NO chances at surviving. Hunter is supposed to be a survival class regnerating our health back while kiting and doing brutal DMG. But our class dont work as Blizz had destroyed our class thus making us easy targets. We should have been a spec that hunts people thats where the name ‘Hunter’ comes from. Sadly hunter is the one getting hunted these days.
What most shocks me is when the stupid masses ask for MM dmg nerfs (the only thing we have 
) and 80-90% of hunters agree with them, I get in pure shock.
It goes like this:
(Masses of Evil) Blizz pls find the nerf hammer and hit them hard.
(Hunters) Okey fine! I agree, we have too much dmg and some of it is in need of nerf. But dont hit us too hard
Yet another example:
(Bullies) Hey, let me get this hammer and hit you hard in the head.
(Victim aka Hunters) Okey fine! I agree, hit me in the head but dont split my skull
Conclusion:
Sometimes I really think many hunters have had it bad in real life, bullied or whatever. I can really see the victimhood of many hunters by how they write and agree with the Masses of Evil. Please get a backbone and do NOT let people change your opinions and beliefs. Stand up and be strong to yourself.
And for those hunters that have stood up and been telling the truth in this thread: You know who you are, and you have my deepest respect.
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Everybody has an opinion and you know what they say about those. However, the fact is that if hunter defensives count as “good” for you, what is your opinion about the defensives of almost any other class in the game?
I dare you to give me another class with weaker defensives than hunter…
i think i will re-use what said holinka : " People have to die "
I don’t think right now there’s a undertuned defensive class or overtuned
Maybe DH need a redesign since blur is RNG sometime it make it great sometime it is bad depending on luck, is blur is not RNG i think everything is balanced on defensive
If everyone is unkillable it will be boring and right now everyone is kinda equal
you have a 30 sec cooldown 3 second duration 90% wall that also stops casts on you in progress, another on use wall not usable in stun, a roar of sacrifice usable in stun, a last stand usable in stun, a pseudo-bubble and a healthstone built into your class, on top of your innate ability to kite and ‘cast’ while moving. oh and lastly you can be every race in the game besides dracthyr, meaning you can be dwarf, meaning you can stoneform off feral and assa rogue and arms warrior big bleeds.
hunter is defensively above average. the fact that demon hunters can lawnmower you down doesn’t change this. DHs do this to everyone right now.
You still haven’t answered the question. Unless you really want to convince anyone here that the defensives are BALANCED across the board. Though, If you really believe that then I have the answer I need… 
Hunter is parsecs away from “unkillable” and doesn’t have anything to compensate with… If he had the damage and the utility to counteract the bad defensives I would be ok with it. But I still remember MM Double Tap getting removed because the burst was supposedly too high and what we got in return was useless…
When there are other classes who can DPS and defend at the same time better than you, you know you are underpowered. It’s an undeniable fact.
You also, failed to give me a proper answer. Is there any class with worse defensives? That was the question.
Also, it’s funny because as a MM hunter I don’t have half the defensives you mentioned. Lastly, stoneform isn’t going to help me much when a warrior is sticked on me and I have no means of escape! 
Funny how you think stoneform can make a big difference in an arena just because it will remove a bleed that it’s going to get applied back in less than 2 seconds… xD And don’t let me get started on rogues. There is virtually no way for a hunter to 1 v 1 a rogue… A rogue has better DPS, defensives and CC.
yea that is my point
Defensive does not always rely on Healing CD / Reduction damage
It come also from mobility and CC
Look for Monk for example
Monk are very fragile
but their mobility allow them with transcendance to go behind pillar healing themself
Transcendance is a mobility spell but thank for getting away and ignoring incoming damage it is a very good defensive spell
They don’t have better defensive
They just play differently
A warlock is meant to deal damage to generate a shield to survive
but his mobility are limited
He’s very dependant of his circle to counter certain go
We think often that if you dps you defend yourself is a benediction
But it is also a curse, land CC on the warlock, and run away behind pillar while slowing the warlock while your CC cd is coming back you will see the warlock having a bad time since he can’t generate enought his soul leech and he take full damage
Every class have a different gameplay
By the offensive
by the defensive
By the mobility
And because of that yes some look like they got better defensive than others until you find their curse
Also note that hunter is known to kite , so you need to use control but if hunter was 100% kitting people melee would not be able to stand a chance versus hunters.
your question is kind of nonsensical. not every class attacks from 40+ yards. not every class stands still. if you have a shield wall at 45+ yards and another mail class has a shield wall but attacks at 5 yards - these are not equally defensive classes. the one at range is always taking less damage - every time. so expecting to be able to take as little damage as a melee while also doing your full rotation from the safety of 45-65 yards, while running, is simply delusional im afraid.
which ones do you think you don’t have? I play MM hunter too. I have survival of the fittest, I have exhilaration. I have roar of sacrifice. I have turtle. I have feign death with survival tactics. I have fortitude of the bear.
That’s all I needed thank you… Therefore, Rapid Shot and Aimed Shot need to stay contrary to what the OP believes. Because if you want to nerf the MM hunter damage even more (it’s already nerfed) then you NEED to give them better defensives. If you nerf their damage without giving them anything else in return then their whole “game plan” on defense is ruined.
Irrelevant in an arena and in most situations. Range is a niche at best right now which helps only in a very few scenarios under very certain conditions.
You don’t play MM you play BM posing as MM judging by your talent choice and abilities. Sorry, not my class fantasy. I play Lone Wolf only, never wanted a pet. Also, fortitude of the bear, exhilaration and survival of the fittest are joke compared to what other classes can do to heal/defend themselves.
Pretty sure that if you get focused, the only thing that will save you for a a few seconds is aspect of the turtle, making survival tactics essential for a few more seconds of life. This is no good design in the slightest. And you want to remove Rapid Shot and Aimed Shot over this??? If you agree with the OP at least tell me what you believe MM hunter should get in exchange of giving up Rapid Shot and Aimed Shot…
If survival tactics annoy you, well I don’t like them either. I want this ability deleted ASAP, but can I get something cool in return? Or should I get nerfed AGAIN and not complain as Warrior leaps, DHs dashes, Moks rolls, Rogues (in many ways) and Evoker’s flying make my only niche (which is range) utterly useless in most scenarios?
bro I play all 3 hunter specs. I played MM 2 weeks ago. I played BM this week. I played Surv in S1.
Ok so - this is a choice. You’re actively choosing to spec out of defensive abilities. I can do that too on my warrior - i can choose to not spec into Die by the Sword. This is not the classes’ fault - it is mine for making a terrible PvP build.
Your entire problem lies in the fact that you don’t just have a simple summon pet macro bound into roar of sacrifice. You snipe from range with lone wolf, then if you get jumped press fortitude of the bear, then summon your pet and roar of sacrifice. You now also have master’s call. You have made yourself a sitting dick by playing the weirdest build imaginable.
Tell me - would you say mage is bad if a mage told you they don’t like pressing blink or barrier because it ruins their class fantasy? Come on, man.
So you’re not using roar of sacrifice or one of the strongest honour talents in the game or kiting. yeah its no wonder you die, dude. thats like a warrior never using ignore pain, never using die by the sword and never going defensive stance. when you don’t press your buttons, you die.
Here is the macro: just replace the ‘5’ with whatever pet you wish to summon. For me thats a cunning pet.
#showtooltip roar of sacrifice
/cast Call Pet 5
/cast [target=vomlir] roar of sacrifice
hit it twice and you’ll summon your pet and roar yourself.
All the things you mentioned about the mage and the warrior don’t mess their class fantasy. I don’t want to play like this. I also, don’t like using survival tactics, which is why I don’t PvP at the moment.
So if you want to change something, change the crappy defensives to work in another way that doesn’t get in the way of me playing however I like and then we discuss about Aimed Shot and Rapid Shot. Nerfing the damage while leaving these defensives the same is a no-no…
Yes if blink is essential. Yes.
Oh I am sorry my character is not just a soulless mechanical tool, it’s not like I play an RPG here eh? Sorry, that class fantasy matters.
I am not interested in anything that involves a pet, until this is fixed I am staying away from arenas. I have plenty other things to do to keep me entertained in-game anyway.
So my point still stands, if the choices you presented are what makes hunter defensives “good” then ask to remove them, not Rapid Shot and Aimed Shot.
and this is perfectly fine and reasonable - but not liking using an ability doesnt mean the ability doesn’t exist. i really, really hate using feint on my rogue for example. i hate spending energy on it - but that doesn’t mean rogue is suddenly squishy, it means i’m not using the tools my spec give me.
Again, thats fine - if you really want to not use the tools your class give you, but no one is shedding tears for the warrior who doesn’t use defensive stance because ‘im a berserker!’ and then instantly dies every bg/arena.
People like you don’t. I on the other hand care about class/concept representation more than “tools”… The fact that each class has pretty much 1 way to PvP is bad design. Since the way hunter is supposed to be played in PvP is not my way then I just don’t PvP. Still, I am not sure why Rapid Shot and Aimed Shot should get removed over a few mid- to bad non-sensical defensives though (i mean what Aspect of the Turtle and Survival Tactics are supposed to be?!?, how feign death makes me 90% immune to damage??? 0_o)…
And yes, you still haven’t changed my opinion on the balance side of things because even if I used these “tools” my defensives would be worse than most defensives of other classes who just don’t have that much useless range as me. But I don’t want to focus on that because I don’t care that much if those defensives are good or bad… I won’t use them. Period.
As a matter of fact, just because you mentioned monks:
They can stay as much alive in their bubble, as I can in my Aspect of Turtle. Difference is, I cannot attack. But they can. 1 to 1 most hunter defensives are worse versions of the defensives of other classes. And once again, I repeat monks have so many mobility skills that my range becomes a joke.
Therefore, Rapid Shot and Aimed Shot are fine. End of story.
they don’t, though. and its a competitive game. if you want a pure RPG, play one - this game mode -pvp- is not an RPG, sorry to say. It is like trying to roleplay during a game of CSGO. you’re in the wrong game 
it is you who has told yourself that there is only one way to play - lonewolf and no survival tactics.
The argument wasn’t to remove them - the argument was to let people kick them, because in battlegrounds there is zero counter-play to a hunter standing at 60 yards and pumping a sniper shot aimed shot rapid fire into you. if they were kickable and if sniper shot didn’t exist, then the damage would be much more acceptable, but in its current iteration, no. hunters dont get to be both 60 yard range, highest damage, highest killing blows and one of the nimblest specs in the game. it is a toxic combo that has plagued battlegrounds since vanilla, but got considerably worse in MoP when they removed the deadzone, then got even worse when they added sniper shot and made rapid fire into a DPS ability rather than just a haste buff.
Yes it is. I can PvP, AND still roleplay at the same time. Wild concept eh?
Now that’s not an RPG, you don’t make a character in most FPS games unless we talk about Destiny 2.
Nice try, but no bueno… I haven’t told myself this is the correct way to PvP. Read again.
So, nerf them to the ground. You might as well remove them.
Are you sure you play MM? Because 60 yards sound possible only with Cobalt Assembly powers. Hyperboles do not help your argument.
Use a defensive, you have plenty as most classes. The Sniper Shot won’t one shot you so you can heal yourself as most classes have better self-healing than Hunter. You can also hide behind anything. Or you know use your mobility skills to close the distance instantly as most classes have better mobility than Hunter. Should I go on?
You mean an average of 45. Not 60.
I laugh in Warlock, Mage and most of other classes in the game really.
Nice joke.
Really??? DH, Warrior, Monk. and many others. It’s not even funny…
Rogue’s combo of endless CC, better mobility than hunter, better defensives like Dodge is more toxic. Also, he is in Stealth all the time so he has no business in giving me the opening shot, so once again my range is useless. Most of the the time the Rogue will get the first jump. I could give many similar examples with many other classes as well.
Thank god they did. Now I can at least pretend I have a chance of fighting back against a Warrior, DH or a Rogue who is right in my face.
Or they could remove our 
“awesome” defensives and buff those even more. I would certainly welcome that even if Rogue’s Dodge+Dash, Warrior’s leaps+ignore pain, DH’s endless dashes and Monk’s rolls+jade serpent kicks mean I won’t be able to land more than 1 hit before I die once I am spotted.
Although, if they do this the MM hunter arena power will be at the bottom of the game, but it’s not like it ever was good so I don’t care. At least let me do my thing in BGs and forget that arenas exist.
Preach!!!
Unless, they get creative and rework all our defensives our DMG burst should be high, because that’s the only thing we can bring on the table at the end of the day. It’s not like there is no counterplay to burst damage as some people pretending here. Counterplay to burst ranged damage exists and the options are many.
Yeap, some people want to make us useless again it seems. It’s not enough that our arena capability is low, they want to makes us useless on BGs as well. I should start creating threads about nerfing/removing their toys just for the lols…
That’s like the only thing we can do and you want to take it away from us… Should I create a thread asking the devs to remove Blink and Ice Block?
Still the argument is invalid. If I use Salted Waters you can use another consumable to raise your defenses or heal yourself.
Yeah sure let’s homogenize all classes in the name of balance. Let’s make the game and class identity even more terrible.
tbh I agree. I used to main a hunter in S1 and bits in SL. Bring resource management back, they can scale down healing and dmg too that way.
Making dmg and healin and each button you press more meaningful…Rn it feels too…hectic.
It’s basically pump heals till one side makes ONE mistake and get oblitirated by insane burst dmg…which is only stopped by insane burst healing…World of CCraft