Regarding Man'ari

Argent Dawn
883

Wrong. Especially for new players this entire franchises lore is so confusing that literally the second they step in, they have no idea what’s going on. I mean, have you tried playing the game like a new player at all recently? You start on the Tutorial Isles which are part of BfA and then suddenly you are bombarded with 18+ years of WoW story without ANY chronological order at Chromie (unless you are forced to play BfA, and BfA was never really good at introducing you to WoWs world the best way).

People like you say “you shouldn’t need WoWpedia for character-relevant information” while in the very same comment telling me “well, apparently you didn’t research it before creating your character”.

Like how much do you want to contradict yourself? You are telling me basically to read a book but not learning to read before attempting.

I never said it was my intention or is. When I created this characters story, I did do all the research, I did all the necessary stuff. But guess what? If (critical) information just isn’t there on the sources people like you link when informing yourself, I really wonder how you expect players to actually “nail it” when they don’t have all the info needed.

I really feel like a pupil in school where you are the teachers being too lazy to actually educate the class efficiently and expect us to manage to write an A+ in the upcoming exams. And alongside of that, when the students blame your teaching methods, you try to gaslight the students into thinking they did not study enough.

It was a rhetorical question and doesn’t need an answer.

The fact that you say this shows me clearly you can’t read context. I said the quote in response to something that was told to me AFTER I created the character. That’s an entirely different situation than 2 years ago when I created this character and did do all the research (alongside all sneaked-in flaws of an incomplete WoW Timeline).

But ok, I see I can’t make you guys see the situation for what it is. Complain and correct me all you want. I give up and stop bothering with you forum dwellers.

884

May you be blessed with more honest and critical friends in the future I wish you only the best

885

For the sake of clarity there have been no Draenei from Alt Draenor that came to MU Azeroth at any point. Not sure whether it was due to a cordial agreement with Timewalkers, Blizzard not wanting to deal with the consequences or a lack of care, but that’s how it is.

Which renders this entire discussion with the General Discussion escapee Draenei poster rather moot.

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886

There is no contradiction, you just don´t understand what I said. It wasn´t a statement on how players should be able to find everything clearly in the game, but on how you shouldn´t need WoWpedia to spell every event that ever happened on timeline with big letters. You should be able to make the logical connection between Mag´har recruitment scenario taking place in early BfA and early BfA taking place in year 33. It´s not that difficult to put those two pieces of information together.

And this is why RPers are often understanding towards new players who made a mistake and try to correct them.
Of course, this understanding doesn´t extend to people who then become defensive about their character concept as if everyone else was wrong by questioning it. Even more so when their reaction to being pointed towards lore that contradicts that concept it: “I´m going to ignore that.”

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887

You’re depicting the LF as zealots - which may be true for some, but there’s no indication that they all think like one.

Since we have, like, twenty lines of dialogue about them its not like that’s enough to create a monolithic character, especially when:

(I) for all the talk about them being zealot of the light, their leader is banging a void elf.
(II) they tolerated Illidan who, by the way, may have taught a lesson to some: “the Light cannot save you, only you can do so yourselves”.

  • Since the Legion was defeated without the Light’s support, by mortal’s hands mostly, it may bring some LF to question the value of blind faith.

(III) I don’t see anything that makes a lightforged a monolithic block of ideas, they can have their own opinion about Yrel = bad.
(IV) For example, they may think that the Light has to be embraced willingly rather than imposed. The orcs of Draenor weren’t corrupted by fel, and as taught by draenei, the Light is in “every naturally born living being”, so perhaps to some, the orcs did not need to be converted by force.

(I’m not sure how a LF would have any opinion of Yrel though, since she did all of this in another timeline, which your character couldn’t possibly have access to)

Except you know, the very teachings of the Light. Velen himself disapproves of forcing the Light onto others (ref. Reaction to Xe’ra’s death) so there’s quite the precedent.

888

It was not you I spoke of, but another whose name I honestly forgot. My sincere apologies if it came off as if it was you, but it was not. In fact , our chars discussed their viewpoints in good faith and seemed to agree on that Light could be used for good and bad due to the people, even if Des IC found it hard to admit. In the end our chars chose to stick mostly to their own viewpoints while still getting along well.

Edit: I’ll also admit, I havent read much else of the posts, I only got here since someone told me about it, so , if there’s something important I missed, that’s why.

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889

Ok. Dude. One last response from me before I let this topic drop.

Explain me, HOW I, as an unknowing player (at that date), am supposed to know stuff I don’t know yet? And when I look up the timeline of major events it isn’t mentioned there? Like on 2 different occasion on that very same timeline the mentioning of allied races being recruited is important, but somehow the most important one including a time travel is not and in that case not mentioned?

Again, you are telling me to look up when the Mag’har scenario happened, when you can play it only once per account ingame, it isn’t being mentioned on the main timeline website the RP scene is usually using and no one else either. Like what do you expect me to do, huh? Go on google and type “when did mag’har allied race got added”? That’s not something people immediately would ask themselves when not finding an info on the timeline.

Especially in a community as big and creative as WoWs, with thousands of thousands of Addons at their disposal, millions of WoWhead articles and all that stuff… And they can’t manage to mention every important thing like an allied race being recruited to a timeline.

Sorry, but again. For someone KNOWING the lore ALREADY, it makes as much sense as 2+2 that the Mag’har scenario happnened in 8.0. But for a new player that DOESN’T know the Lore yet, that’s like expecting to know Quantum Dynamics when first starting to use X=Y+X² formulas.

And if my tone appears to you as unfriendly or toxic in any way, be assured I am not seeing you in any negative light (yet). I am just incredibly frustrated by your expectation that I should fix a character that is already working well enough.

No offense taken. We both know I value you as a good friend both IC and OOC, Desartin :heart:

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890

It’d be a bit unthinkable that only Khadgar has ever returned back to Azeroth from the Draenor campaign so I could give some leeway if a AU Draenei just decided to come along back to MU only to find out the path is forever closed.

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891

It´s simple, you do the same thing countless new RPers have done before you: After finding out the concept you´re RPing doesn´t make sense in the lore, you adjust it.
If the people you RP with regularly care about you, they will be willing to adapt to your changed concept.
As I said, people are understanding when new RPers mess up, but that understanding decreases when the player has been RPing for a while and reacts with hostility when their mistakes are pointed out.

That, or you can ask on the forums, in the guild chat, pretty much anywhere, and people would tell you.

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892

It’s not unthinkable when that’s the case. I’ll give it leeway when we see any instances of AU Draenei NPCs mucking about in Stormwind City.

893

I just think it’s a headcanon that’s ultimately gonna clash with someone else’s then. There’s no reason why a AU Draenei couldn’t have joined back the Alliance campaign as they returned to Azeroth just as much there’s no reason not to believe that absolute none of them went through the Stormshield Portal and stuck to Draenor forevermore.

The Draenic Shrodinger existed way before Velen’s move on Argus by leaving the Krokuul on there, which is my headcanon but there’s also no reason as to why I wouldn’t believe someone telling me “Oh yeah Velen definitely grabbed them all or some back to the Vindicaar and didn’t just go senile.”

894

True it’s not like it was the vindicaar and all its funny LFD tech that facilitated not only access to but also transport around argus as well as antorus’ raid bosses.

Their leader is captain Fareeya :^) but that aside if you’re not a zealot you don’t survive the Lightforging process.

tbh I don’t have an issue with some hopping along to our timeline back in WoD, seems perfectly fine really. It may not have been expressly shown, but it’s not a particularly huge leap.

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895

Yeah, if I remember correctly there’s a lot of emphasis on “you don’t have to do this” / “you can always turn back” as cautious advice because it does have a fatality rate (and to be honest it’s probably quite a high fatality rate at that)

T’paartos is lucky he partnered with the champion of Azeroth because otherwise he would have definitely D’paarted.

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896

Personally I think the inevitable Lightbound Draenei RP’ers will be more insufferable than Man’ari. You at least already have an IC reason to dislike/distrust Man’ari.

897

From a functional point of view it wouldn’t matter anyway. The Draenei experienced largely the same processes and history on WoDraenor as BC Draenor/Outland. You can literally play an AU Draenei and it wouldn’t have much of an impact difference on any real interaction besides perhaps you just hate Orcs rather than Fel using Orcs.

It’s not like WoDraenor had any massive changes to its context or background compared to the main timeline. Sure it might be shocking for an AU Draenei to travel to Outland and see the wreckage, but then surely they will be relieved that their world survives (and became Lightforged).

898

I’m not arguing if it facilitated, I’m stating the difference wasn’t done by the Light: they have been fighting with the Light tech and Xe’ra’s guidance for as long as they remember, and all of a sudden this Illidan guy one-shots your all-powerful leader and gives a major contribution to the defeat of the Legion, one you wouldn’t have achieved without the azerothians who don’t revere the Light as you do. It could be a significant change for a character arc.

Just leaving it here as food for thought for those who don’t want to try and argue pointless minutiae like:

Oh yeah, remind me again who is the High Exarch of the AOL, you know, Fareeya’s superior?

I’m sure someone as learned as you won’t have issue providing me with a quote which confirms that a non-zealot won’t become a lightforged? Because the LF quest does not suggest it at all. There is nothing that makes it impossible for someone with, say, a more open mentality like Velen to become a Lightforged.

If anything, seeing what kind of ritual they undergo, it looks like there is a great deal of inner demons and personal matters to overcome, which suggests that the connection with the Light has to be personal and intimate, not some ideology that descends from above (which can be there, but doesn’t have to).

Heck, if anything, Lothraxion (who helped Vereesa learn of the Void) suggests not every LF is a zealot.

2 Likes
899

In regards to becoming Lightforged, anyone can attempt it and succeed at it. Zealotry isn’t a guarantor of success in the process because it involves facing one’s inner demons, accepting them and overcoming them in order to better attune oneself to the Light.

However, zealotry is an issue that comes with being one of the Lightforged when there is a single element present: the Naaru. The presence of a Light phase Naaru can serve as an irresistable influence to a Lightforged. It can make them do as it pleases, making them ignore their own doubts and do things that they would not ordinarily do without even questioning why.

This is why Y’rel became the tyrant she was; we left her and the AU Draenei alone with a newly Light infused Naaru to guide them on the path to becoming Lightforged and the Naaru did as the Naaru are prone to doing in the absence of a moderating force: it asserted it’s influence over those already slightly influenced by the Light to make a new Army for itself, regardless of the wishes of those it was attempting to dominate.

Lothraxion is another fine example of this (though given what we learnt in Shadowlands it’s unsure whether him helping Vereesa was his own design). He was no zealot, but at the same time he was forcibly lightforged by Xe’ra, just as she attempted to do with Illidan.

The only reason that he and the other Lightforged in our timeline are different from Y’rel’s Army are that they had a very public lifting of the veil from their eyes with Xe’ra’s death, Illidan’s speech and the following battles on Argus that brought the Legion to it’s knees, giving them cause to reconsider what they may have been doing while under the Naaru’s influence.

TLDR:

You don’t need to be a zealot to survive the Lightforging process, you simply need the strength of will to confront and overcome your inner demons to allow you to attune to the Light.

You can be forced through this process via the influence of a Light phase Naaru. The Naaru will do this regardless of your consent if it suits their plans (see Illidan and Lothraxion).

Naaru operating without moderating influences (read, working with anything not Light aligned and not in a catastrophic scenario (see main timeline Draenei)) are far bolder and prone to forcing their vision of the world onto everyone else.

Light phase Naaru have the ability to manipulate the extremely Light sensitive Lightforged due to them being supreme beings of Light.

Lightforged zealotry only truly surfaces when a Naaru is around to influence them into becoming the Army. This is why Y’rel’s AU Army is as bad as it is, 30+ years of unchecked Naaru influence.

Lightforged that have the Naaru’s control exposed are highly unlikely to fall under their sway again. However, we have not had a chance to prove this hypothesis as there are currently no Naaru confirmed to be active on Azeroth in the Dragonflight era. Nothing has been heard from the Outland Naaru since Wrath.

Our Lightforged had the curtain lifted on the Vindicaar, and thus are unlikely to be the blind zealots they once were.

2 Likes
900

As someone previously stated before, it’s not The Naaru but A Naaru who specifically seems to send people to the deep end. The Lightforging process happens regardless of their presence.

901

They’re definately shown to have some agency and identity. They’re not a hive-mind despite working towards some vague goal that’s maybe in the same general direction. A’dal and M’uru were not really like X’era at all, for example.

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902

And the big lady X was fine and caring… Until she wasn’t. Which was still a bit weird.

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