Regarding Mythic+ Experience (please read <3)

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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Dear World of Warcraft Team,
I’m reaching out as a long-time player since 2005, and as someone who deeply values the incredible journey this game has offered over the years. I have never been involved in the community controversy about the game or written something like this to you. However, I’d like to share some growing concerns regarding the current state of Mythic+ dungeons, a mode with so much potential yet increasingly creating frustration and fatigue among players. It is getting out of hand, and I am afraid it will cause great damage to the game (I love this game).

  1. Toxicity and Group Disbanding:
    Mythic+ was designed as a challenging, time-sensitive mode that rewards teamwork, coordination, and skill. However, the current state of Mythic+ often feels punishing rather than rewarding, with many groups disbanding after just one mistake. The intense pressure to complete runs perfectly has fostered a community mindset where even minor errors lead to players leaving, ultimately creating a “lose-lose” situation for everyone involved. This environment discourages players from taking risks or playing casually and fosters stress and frustration.
  2. “Meta” Dominance and Class Exclusion:
    Another major concern is the increasing dominance of “meta” classes in Mythic+. While it’s natural for certain classes to perform well in specific environments, Mythic+ has taken this to an extreme, where non-meta classes struggle to find groups, and players feel compelled to reroll just to be viable. This focus on narrow “meta” roles and compositions greatly limits the diversity and inclusivity that World of Warcraft was once celebrated for. It’s disheartening to feel that I can no longer enjoy Mythic+ content with my preferred class or playstyle simply because it isn’t part of the accepted meta.
  3. Impact on Time and Enjoyment:
    Mythic+ was intended to be challenging, but it has now become a high-risk endeavor with minimal room for error, resulting in wasted time and effort for players. The time investment in Mythic+ is considerable, yet the current design means that even a small misstep can cost hours of progress. Instead of feeling accomplished and rewarded, many players feel drained and discouraged. Mythic+ should be an enjoyable challenge that makes the time investment worthwhile, not leaving players frustrated and defeated.
  4. Suggestions for Improvement:
    As a decent average casual player who has been exposed to the game for a very long time. I have two different suggestions:
    The first, is to stop depleting keys when not making it in time. And/or reduce the time when players die or just ignore reducing time at all when players die.
    Secondly, I suggest a potential improvement inspired by the recent Delve mode. In Delve, players can complete content without the pressure of a time constraint, with the main penalty tied to the number of deaths affecting rewards. Bringing this approach to Mythic+ could provide similar freedom (like old days, when players spent their time and play at their own pace in a dungeon). Which allows players to tackle difficult content without the intense pressure of a timer. This would shift the focus back to the enjoyment of the content itself, encouraging more inclusive and diverse group compositions while reducing the urge to abandon a group over a single error.

Another solution is to simply force a penalty on the ones who leave in the middle of the Mythic+ challenge. As for this solution with the recent news of starting to suspend leavers in M+. I started to notice, as it happened to me personally. Where some players start offending people in M+, and cause them to rage leave, or stress them off. What happened to me is the same, when someone started to offend me and cuss at me, I couldn’t bear it so I left. then he w/ me to tell me to leave already to report me. I am not happy bc I never had this experience before now.

Thank you for considering this feedback and sorry for the broken language as English is not my first language. I hope it contributes to creating a more enjoyable and sustainable Mythic+ experience. I truly believe World of Warcraft can continue to be an incredible game for all players if these aspects of Mythic+ are revisited.

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A well though out post… But, literally all of these problems you have listed disappear instantly as soon as you stop pugging.

It doesn´t have to be a guild, there are tons of loose-knit communities like the L community where people come and go as they please with no obligations other than to not be a douche to the people playing with you. I highly reccomend joining one or more of them if you wish to continue to Pug M+ and remove yourself from the cesspool.

Ignore, report, and then just afk if it gets to be too much… waste every precious second of their meaningless lives that they´re willing to lose, they deserve it because it´s their time that they purport to not be wasting by griefing others… so that´s exactly where we need to hit them hardest.

Partly also because no punishment Blizzard can hand out can ever be harsh enough, we need to take it upon ourselves as players to make every second they “play” with us and act like divas a living hell whenever and wherever we get the chance. :beers:

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Thanks for the reply, as discussing this matter with the public, grows your perspective too. I do like the game so much, I started doing other activities like old content achievements. I don’t think I’ll be able to spam M+ for such reasons. Hopefully they can reconsider this mode of the game and do something serious about it.

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Pugging hasn’t been a problem in any of the previous seasons since M+ launched in Legion.

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Yea, the playerbase all magically changed this season. Prior to this pugging was like walking through a field in the sunshine being licked by hundreds of cute puppies.
Never in the past did pugs demand certain classes or specs, it was all totally fine in old expansions.

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All this meta stuff doesn’t apply unless you play +12 keys and up. You can easily play +11 keys and below with any composition, as long as you have the endurance to grind up the rio and the ilvl on the character you want to play.

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Man, i’d have loved your Pugging experience. Mine’s been akin to walking over dead man’s land during the first world war every time.

Anyway to answer the OP:

It’s a shame that your personal M+ experience turned out how it did, but its also unfortunate that it’s not really something you can immediately expect a remedy to. As you say, it’s the community we have - whether they justify the toxicity or not - that is a big problem. I’ve not really subscribed to the idea that toxicity is caused by the mechanics of a game, as you may as well blame the circumstance of anything as a result of a poor response.

But what Credulon wrote is quite accurate. Whilst you can’t expect nice groups in the pug scene, you can take serious steps to improving your chances of finding nicer and more tolerable groups by finding guilds and general PvE communities. Ever since I did that, i’ve come to enjoy spamming M+ again.

A lot of these communities are also blessed in that certain things people might consider difficult to adjust to - such as voice comms - are entirely optional. Just that you should keep negativity and unconstructive critique outside the door. Surprisingly you can be helpful to people’s mistakes without spitting venom.

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I have to ask, do people come up with this themselves or is it just a matter of repeating ideas from other topics/influencers/streamers?

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Man, i’d have loved your Pugging experience. Mine’s been akin to walking over dead man’s land during the first world war every time.

Was a bit arrogant to write it like I did, yeah. Would like to change my answer too “Pugging hasn’t been this big of a problem in any of the previous seasons since M+ launched in Legion.”

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And that´s why this topic and discussion are older then M+?

As well as why so many tanks and healers, in fact players in general, quit pugging altogether (not only M+) aeons ago, making the current hemorrhaging of players in M+ in favor of less toxic modes /subcommunities all the more impactful? :wink:

And why people that play in organized groups aren´t on the forums 24/7 whining about how the game is dying, but only people that are “forced” (their words, not mine) to pug M+?

Now, I agree that pugging itself isn’t the actual problem, rather it´s the collection og 90% ok people / 10% scum that comprise all of humanity that are the problem. Unfortunately, dissociating these 2 is by definition impossible, because without the community you can´t pug.

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And that´s why this topic and discussion are older then M+?

Far from this extent. You now have streamers, content creators, the top 0.1%, the casuals, youtubers - you got negative feedback from all around, not just a specific group of players. I mean, it’s not hard to get a grip of the situation and get a general feel what the majority thinks. Google “whats wrong with m+” or something like that. Search it

As well as why so many tanks and healers, in fact players in general, quit pugging altogether (not only M+) aeons ago,

The pug scene has, to me, been alive and well since Legion with ups and downs of course. Haven’t notice any downfall or neither tanks nor healers quit pugging. And with something like between 800-1200 m+ runs per expansion (correction) I think I got a decent grasp about M+ and pugging in general.

And why people that play in organized groups aren´t on the forums 24/7 whining about how the game is dying, but only people that are “forced” (their words, not mine) to pug M+?

“And why people that play in organized groups aren´t on the forums 24/7 whining about how the game is dying”
I have no clue about this statement whatsoever, and barely understand it.

Now, I agree that pugging itself isn’t the actual problem, rather it´s the collection og 90% ok people / 10% scum that comprise all of humanity that are the problem. Unfortunately, dissociating these 2 is by definition impossible, because without the community you can´t pug.

I really don’t know. I do however know that I’ve experienced more toxicity so far into TWW season 1 than I’ve done all together since I started playing WoW in the middle of Legion (and M+).

I however, again, blame most of the problems on the key squish. For the numbers sake; before the squish you had people in like the range of lets say 10-14, 15-19 and 20-25 and 26-29 etc. You had a wider range of levels where players could find they ‘comfort level’. Now you have those that played 10-14 keys fighting over spots with those who did 20-25 (again, numbers are just there to make a point and an easier read). The curve is too steep in all directions.

And there has, and will always be, meta classes but the gap between meta classes and non-meta classes has never been this big before. Just compare the charts how classes are distributed/played on raider. io with TWW season with other seasons before.

This chart sums up much. From week 7 however, but just to illustrate the impact the the key squish had and what people mean with the great wall at 10/11/12. It’s actually insane in my eyes when you see it like this. People can “faceroll” and +3 an 10 but be hard stuck on an 11.

LINK: Total runs per key level

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is it a bad idea?

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Well, yes, no, maybe.

It feels like some people hear some ideas and just repeat those, in the hope of it being implemented. But whether it’s a good idea, or if it’s the solution to the problem, and what negative side-effects may be attached to it are all left untouched. And in that regard I do consider it a bad idea, yes.

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You are wrong. It’s not a “high risk”. It’s not hardcore where deaths are permanent. You don’t lose RIO score. You don’t lose equipment.

A small misstep means your chances of timing the key are lower. That’s it. Sometimes you can still time a key with 1 or even more wipes. If not, you can either continue untimed and get 5 gilded crests, a chance for heroic track gear and a weekly vault unlock, or the group disbands and you lose 10-20 minutes (not hours).

I agree with that 100%. I have been saying that for years.

I also agree with that. But I think Blizzard are, understandably, treading carefully with delves and they don’t want to go the full “delves as an equally lucrative gearing path to M+” because it can have negative effects on M+.

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I understand toxicity in a game like League of legends, where the playerbase is on average young.

But the playerbase in WoW is far from young on average.

Adults usually behave. Except when they are frustrated, fed up.

I had a DK dps in my +8 M+ group that soaked EVERY cleave in NW. Drove me mad as the healer, to the point i stopped healing cleave dmg. He never understood the concept of cleave. Amazing.

I had to stop M+ for the day, cause i know when i should stop. He was not the sole reason tho, had a hunter earlier who looked for stuff on the ground to run into it seems. While doing less dps than the tank. All these small cuts when the cost of failing is so high, makes for frustrated players. And frustration can make normally non toxic people, act in a way they do not normally do.

And people who are toxic in general. Well they just become unbearable.

Some do not know when they should stop, and become toxic instead.

Thankfully i just exit game when i had enough.

I must say this reason makes me Exit game a lot and play other games. Due to frustration.

Others might not exit game, thus frustration ends up spilling over on people.
I know of the sunken cost fallacy. And i will quit wow if its more frustrating than fun to play. Better to just move on than waste more time.

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literally all of these problems you have listed disappear instantly as soon as you stop pugging.

This is not true at all : First if you stop pugging one shot tank mechanics will not go away ! you need certain healing specs and certain DPS specs to achieve your goals so still you would need meta specs ! beside that many like myself don’t want to commit time and schedule or go to discord with random people ! This was not a problem in past but a new one born from a bad design .

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Where in the OP that that response was directed at does it mention anything about Oneshot tank mechanics? Furthermore, Oneshot mechanics have existed far longer than M+, and have always been a part of the challenge of tanking any form of organized content. And since crushing blows no longer exist, they are currently the few justifications for tanks as a role to even exist, instead of just overhealing a fury.

At the level the vast majority play at or could if they actually tried, no you don´t.

This only becomes relevant in higher keys, currently above 12s, which less than 10% have even attempted or will attept by he end of the season in 2 months. The people demanding meta comp to clear 5s are nothing more than a bad joke on themselves and don´t even deserve to be humored with an application to the group.

This is entirely a you problem. Just because you don´t want to or can´t make the same comitment others can doesn´t make that a suboptimal choice, it merely means that you refuse to accept obvious truths. Which the following statement further underscores…

This is the most ridiculous thing I´ve heard today, possibly in 2024. These exact things have been community driven issues and cause for discussion since before M+, or for that matter even heroic raiding, were more than brainfarts.

We´ve literally been discussing these exact things since at least mid TBC some 18 years ago, when people were all up in arms about not being able to complete T4 without buying a boost, simply because Gruul and Magtheridon required 25 people.

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God all mighty…

This kind of explains why pushing keys is so boring… there is nobody to play with !

Agree with you 100%.

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So do you think the game is just fine? and we cry too much? or the problems are real and need to be approached in different ways?

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We definitely exaggerate and cry too much. But that doesn’t mean that nothing can be improved.

I honestly don’t know? I mean, the problems are real, as players seem to face them. But how prominent these issues are, I’m not sure…

I personally rarely ever face pure toxicity in M+. Groups disbanding, it happens but that is usually because someone doesn’t really have control over their class/spec, or they are just having a bad day. Not too prominent really. Meta, doesn’t impact me in any shape or form. The worst thing currently, imo, is the gearing system.

What I see, from all these complaints, is the same base; exaggerations and the pure lack of will to improve the odds by using the tools and possibilities currently present. Instead we ask for a dozen of specific technical changes to…to…solve social issues? Technical changes are inherently bad at solving social issues.

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