Relationship status between Belf/Nelf with the Illidari

[Aeneon-argent-dawn]

Illidari, at least within the Alliance, seem to be free to kill should they seem like they lose control. I think this says a lot about the attitude Anduin and the others might have. It’s tolerance. Barely.

You may establish a camp in the Mage Quarter. The Alliance will have need of your skills if we are to face the Legion.

Make no mistake though. Should your kind give in to the fel energies you toy with, we will treat you like the demons you are becoming.

It’s also interesting what Varian thought about the blood elves alone during Wolfheart. You can imagine then, what he might / others might think about demon hunters:

The orcs aside—and they were also among those of whom Varian was suspicious—the king could not see any reason to believe in the honor of blood elves—high elves who had turned to absorbing demonic magic after the loss of their vaunted power source, the Sunwell, and had subsequently become addicted to the fel energies.

At the same time, the Horde has a deeper focus on loyalty than the nasty magic they employ, though Saurfang has a bunch of stuff to say about that. However, Sylvanas only cares about their absolute loyalty. This might be a fairly important aspect between the acceptance of blood elf demon hunters within the Horde:

Tell your Illidari within Orgrimmar to make ready to serve the Horde.

But make no mistake, your kind once served the Betrayer. Betray me, and there is no world you can run to that will save you from my vengeance.

@Alendari-argent-dawn

They also did prove themselves for the most part, and their leader took it upon himself to keep Sargeras locked away. That’s a conviction not so easily ignored.

I personally think this is an extremely overrated point for several reasons:

A. It is unlikely every civilian on Azeroth read the WoWpedia page and knows what transpired at the Seat of the Pantheon. In fact, I can’t remember a single line by any NPC even ever mentioning it.

B. Illidan’s plan to open a rift to Argus brought victory in the end, but at the price of many lives on Azeroth. When you are on Argus, you can see how many Legion ships seem to be encroaching on Azeroth as a consequence of bringing the demon home world in spitting range of Azeroth. There’s a reason Khadgar and everyone else is absolutely horrified when he does it at the conclusion of the Tomb of Sargeras Raid.

C. Illidari have sadly, and that might just be Blizzard’s poor depiction of it in-game, not done that much more than other order halls to defeat the Legion -during- Legion.

D. The razing of Nendis and other crimes the Illidari as a faction have committed are unlikely to be forgotten.

@Turanil-argent-dawn

I imagine the Illidari are barely tolerated by Night elven society. Likely utter pariahs of society, to see them openly is highly detested, at best, tolerated, at worst…

I think this is the most realistic of views and in line with what see from dialogue swithin the Vault of the Wardens and everywhere else (for example the Kirin Tor jailor in Dalaran).

it is extremely curious to see so many demon hunters be openly accepted in towns or even the forests of Ashenvale with glowy armor and weapons infused with fel magic. Especially druids would be outraged, I imagine, as nature itself seems to react fearful and disconcerted towards -arcane magic- let alone fel magic. I will seek out the quote in question tomorrow. I believe it was in Stormrage?

In any case, they are scaled, fel-infested abominations with a literal demon bound to them. It will make the average character not only suspicious, but also constantly remind them of the Legion that once took their loved ones and their home. They will scare the children in towns and cities with their horrific sight.

In addition, they are using a magic that explicitly feeds on life. I just don’t see them being anything more than tolerated, and I also don’t see why an Illidari / demon hunter would ever bother his own people with his vile presence without a good pragmatic OR psychological reason.

There’s a reason they have their own little corner in the capitals. Their own little bases out in the world. Their own little floating island outside of Dalaran. Very few want anything to do with them and never will. That’s just how it is reflected in-game, and what logic seems to dictate.

One last thing:

I feel to a large degree, RPers have just been desensitised to the presence of warlocks, undead, void elves and demon hunters within the faction (fairly small populations in the grand scheme in lore, but quite widespread in RP) and are thus much more accepting than they should be. In addition, people don’t like to exclude others from RP. I’ve met many who didn’t wish to kick demon hunters out to not isolate them from roleplay.

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Aeneon-argent-dawn

I feel to a large degree, RPers have just been desensitised to the presence of warlocks, undead, void elves and demon hunters within the faction (fairly small populations in the grand scheme in lore, but quite widespread in RP) and are thus much more accepting than they should be.

Most people play military characters of some level, who would have a higher chance of working together with things like Shadow Priests, Warlocks, Death Knights, Demon Hunters that the average ZugZug would find distasteful.

[Aeneon-argent-dawn]

That isn’t really a good reason. I’m sure Varian and Saurfang worked with plenty of those, yet they despise them and they are weathered veterans. I see your point, but I don’t think it makes as much of a difference as you say here, judging by the in-game dialogues and so on.

[Brigante-argent-dawn (Brigante)]

Rubs his hands together “Hold my beer”…

@Leíá-argent-dawn

Well the indication from what we see in VotW is that the Blood Elves shun the Illidari as “freaks.”

Blood Elves do seem to have this weird ‘purity’ vibe going on, and there is probably a very good reason for that, on which more later…

@Angelus-argent-dawn

Blood Elves are fascinated by power, it is a cultural thing which is why more Blood Elves were drawn to the Demon Hunter way as it was part of their interest in powerplay, while the Night Elves sought Illidan mostly for vengeance.

Ehh, Yes-and-no. The original Blood Elven ones were kind of ‘given’ to Illidan by Kael’thas. If you track back the origins of the Scourge, the people of Quel’thalas had quite a big vendetta against the Legion as well…hence Kael’thas’ actions being clandestine at first, then causing such revulsion when their magnitude became known.

@Kalgarr-argent-dawn

Not that I doubt you, I roll with this myself, but there’s those green crystals with evil eyes around Quel’thalas, what’s up with those?

Right, well, the Crystals, a few things about those;

They never had ‘eeeeevil spooky eyes’ in lore, that’s just a game thing to hammer it home that something ain’t right. They were just green crystals.

Secondly, ‘Were’ is the operative word, Once the Belves twigged what they were ( no one bar Kael’thas, not even Rommath originally knew) and the Sunwell was reignited, the whole lot got binned. Rommath refers to the Fel Crystals that -used- to be in Silvermoon. Blizz being Blizz, Silvermoon is stuck in the TBC Land that Time Forgot. So nothing has changed. But yeah, those crystals, Gone now, in lore.

As to what is up with those, the question is rather apposite. They were there to keep the Buildings ‘Up’. They weren’t there to feed on, but Silvermoon is a -magical- city, half its buildings float in mid air, some are impossible, and the entire existing half of the current city, was rebuilt almost overnight by magic, not Bricks and Mortar.

The Crystals were there to keep everything in place, not, most definitely not, as an ‘all you can eat buffet’ for the Blood Elves. Who never drained Fel anyway, except for the most mental.

@Aeneon-argent-dawn

It’s also interesting what Varian thought about the blood elves alone during Wolfheart. You can imagine then, what he might / others might think about demon hunters:

The orcs aside—and they were also among those of whom Varian was suspicious—the king could not see any reason to believe in the honor of blood elves—high elves who had turned to absorbing demonic magic after the loss of their vaunted power source, the Sunwell, and had subsequently become addicted to the fel energies.

Which just goes to show the value of not being omniscient as a character. The High King of the Alliance, is making assumptions that are 100% wrong. (and I don’t just mean spelling ‘honour’ the American way in his internal monologue )

You would have thought, given his friendship with Valeera, that he would have known this. In fact by the time of ‘Wolfheart’ the whole world pretty much knew this? In fact it is massively well known, because it becomes apparent in TBC what an Elf who absorbs Fel looks like, Selin Fireheart (1st boss in Magisters Terrace) is a perfect example. That’s what all Blood Elves who drained Fel personally look like.

I’ve just realised. Knaak wrote ‘Wolfheart’. This makes a lot of sense suddenly, That chap has never exactly been a close buddy with the lore. Yeah, He’s wrong. Blood Elves were not High Elves who had turned to absorbing demonic magic after the Fall, and they had not subsequently become addicted to Fel Energies. He gets an E - for lore comprehension.

That’s the Lore bit.

My personal opinion is that they are still pretty reviled. I mean they are ticking time bombs waiting to go off. I mean that’s exactly what they are. Now they’re not always violent and starting fights (and indeed any Illidari who did so, would be having a practical lesson as to why having an eternal demon soul is a rubbish idea, when your captors can just keep killing you , exorcising you and torturing you for eternity effectively, Seriously, Illidari are going to be Tigers behaving like pussy cats in polite society). I mean the protagonist of ‘Illidan’, by William King. ‘Vandel’ gives a pretty haunting idea as to how it plays out. He -is- a fully fledged Illidari, and it seems, quite a big deal (I’d have liked to have seen him rock up in game, but c’est la vie) . The Demon soul he consumed was, if I remember rightly, a Felstalker. He is, like all Demon Hunters, Ninjamatic, blind and yet can see perfectly, and hasn’t really given anything.

However.

There is this haunting scene where he is in the Black Temple, in the Sin’dorei quarter, not the Sin’dorei who were becoming Illidari, they were all housed together, but the Blood Elves who were ‘normal’ but followed Illidan. They’re having a party, there is wine, dancing, music. Vandel is watching them, and is secretly jealous, he’s hiding in bushes, and now and then reaches out to tables to grab half finished glasses of wine and drink them.

Now that’s genius, That is an insight as to how an Illidari views -themselves- even amongst their allies. He’s basically like those tramps that take half drunk pints off peoples tables when they’ve went for a widdle, and ruffle through ashtrays looking for cigarette butts to harvest for tobacco. I mean that -is- his thought process!

To both Night Elves, and Blood Elves, they are going to be unfortunate reminders of their pasts, just different periods of their pasts, and also both reminders of a person who ‘Betrayed’ their nations. Their very appearance is a reminder of one of their own who betrayed them. Obviously Illidan in the Kaldorei case, and Kael’thas in the Sin’dorei case.

Frankly, Tolerance is the best they’re likely to get, these days.

[Aeneon-argent-dawn]

@Brigante-argent-dawn

You would have thought, given his friendship with Valeera, that he would have known this. In fact by the time of ‘Wolfheart’ the whole world pretty much knew this? In fact it is massively well known, because it becomes apparent in TBC what an Elf who absorbs Fel looks like, Selin Fireheart (1st boss in Magisters Terrace) is a perfect example. That’s what all Blood Elves who drained Fel personally look like.

Wrong, though. What Selin and his lot did is a bit different to the slurping of fel from some fel crystals would be.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blood_for_Blood_(quest)

When Kael’s forces retreated through that portal, his most loyal lackeys were rewarded with an abominable gift. They stayed behind and gorged themselves on the blood of demons for days.

@Brigante-argent-dawn

Now that’s genius, That is an insight as to how an Illidari views -themselves- even amongst their allies. He’s basically like those tramps that take half drunk pints off peoples tables when they’ve went for a widdle, and ruffle through ashtrays looking for cigarette butts to harvest for tobacco. I mean that -is- his thought process!

And yes, there is a lot more to the struggle with the demon than many DH RPers seem to acknowledge / depict. In the book, Vandel often says while they are his comrades, they also seem like he is stuck with rabid beasts etc.

It is especially interesting how the demon seems to wrestle control from them when they sleep. In any case, they’re not made for society, and they know it, too. Everyone around them does as well.

[Brigante-argent-dawn (Brigante)]

@Aeneon-argent-dawn

Wrong, though. What Selin and his lot did is a bit different to the slurping of fel from some fel crystals would be.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blood_for_Blood_(quest)

When Kael’s forces retreated through that portal, his most loyal lackeys were rewarded with an abominable gift. They stayed behind and gorged themselves on the blood of demons for days.

Hang on, those are -exactly- the dudes I’m on about, if you read the full quest text it even explains that. They are on their way to becoming Felbloods…. Selin Fireheart is a felblood. There are plenty of Felbloods -at- the Throne of Kil’jaeden, which is where that quest is set. You (The character) are gunning for the ones half way between Blood Elf, and Felblood. I mean that is implicitly what the full quest text to the quest you linked says…

[Aeneon-argent-dawn]

Yes, they are not “experienced” says the quest text. Again, they and Selin are felbloods, they gorged themselves on demon blood. They’re select few. My point is there is a difference to slurping some fel crystals on occasion and doing what they did.

That’s what all Blood Elves who drained Fel personally look like.

This isn’t accurate. You don’t just instantly go to that level of fel corruption.

[Lóras-argent-dawn (Lóras)]

I recall seeing blood elf Magisters in the Halls of Respite draining fel from the burning crystals there. They didn’t turn into Felblood Elves.

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

Felblood elves are the equivalent of the Fel Orcs from Hellfire. They’re blood elves that gulped way too much Demon blood.

The ones with green eyes are mostly irradiated, just like how Frostwolves are green from Fel radiation even though they didn’t drink Mannoroth’s blood.

Varian is indeed wrong, which is actually a good thing because it shows characters are biased and not omniscient.

[Brigante-argent-dawn (Brigante)]

@Lóras-argent-dawn

I recall seeing blood elf Magisters in the Halls of Respite draining fel from the burning crystals there. They didn’t turn into Felblood Elves.

There’s a connection. They could be draining, they could equally be recharging them, we honestly don’t know. All we know is the canon lore. And in fairness that is one NPC who repeats his cycle. We have to go by lore, and not by what Silvermoon looks like in Game, because the two ain’t the same anymore. By the same logic, those Ambassadors are still waiting for their appointment with Lor’themar about whether the Blood Elves should join the Horde. Both come from the same time period…

[Akamito-argent-dawn (Akamito)]

This meme in no way represents my thoughts on the lore question of whether or not Blood Elves actually partook in the big sipping of demonic based magics during their addict days.

Just for a giggle mate.

[Edevane-argent-dawn]

@Aerilen-argent-dawn

Tirathon Saltheril

People seem to be forgetting that this guy was a Legion turncoat

[Aerilen-argent-dawn (Aerilen)]

@Edevane-argent-dawn

People seem to be forgetting that this guy was a Legion turncoat

True but his remarks read like it was prior to that.

[Edevane-argent-dawn]

It’s a very weird conversation - the words of the conversation are that this is a dialogue between a Warden and a loyal Illidari, but the fact that he’s in a Legion-infested dungeon and chose to stay (and is hostile to the players) imply that he’s a turncoat.

Something must have gone awry in the writing

[Aeneon-argent-dawn]

I don’t think it is weird at all. It reads like he was shunned and outcast after his release from the vault/the fact that he was imprisoned in the first place, and in response to that, he joined the Legion.

Tirathon Saltheril yells: Crimes? Our crime was to sacrifice everything to save this world.

Tirathon Saltheril yells: We fought for Illidan, you imprisoned the world’s villains here for all eternity. And then you imprisoned us.

Drelanim Whisperwind yells: We protect life, often at great risk. Too often at great cost.

Tirathon Saltheril yells: You dare speak of sacrifice to me?

Tirathon Saltheril yells: I gave up my flesh, my soul; my people shun me as a freak.

Tirathon Saltheril yells: And what was my reward? Eternal torment from my “sisters”.

Drelanim Whisperwind yells: I live to serve my people, my goddess; expecting neither personal gain or glory.

Drelanim Whisperwind yells: Can you say the same as you stand there intoxicated with the power of the Legion?

Tirathon Saltheril yells: I will serve MY people, the exiled and the reviled.

Tirathon Saltheril yells: I will slay you and your kin; and when I’m done I will fulfill the dreams of my mentor.

It doesn’t seem like he’s even fully Legion. He just wants revenge for his imprisonment / the shunning, then afterwards continue on with Illidan’s quest. Though by now his “mentor” could also be KJ or Sargeras, who knows.

[Edevane-argent-dawn]

But the entire Illidari order was imprisoned (unless I’ve missed a few along the line) under the same circumstances - there’s not the implication that he’s either gone mad (at least not explicitly) or that he’s actually turned traitor.

Just to take it piece by piece to show the ambiguity.

intoxicated with the power of the Legion?

This can be read both as ‘you have turned to the Legion’ and ‘you have taken on demonic powers and it has changed you’.

my people shun me as a freak

Most likely the blood elves, but could also refer to the Illidari.

I will serve MY people, the exiled and the reviled.

Is he referring to hunters like him (IE exiled from the order for being a turncoat) or the Illidari?

when I’m done I will fulfill the dreams of my mentor.

Is this Cordana Felsong or Illidan?

–

The fact that there are two legitimate readings of this text indicates that something went wrong in solidifying it one way or the other.

[Edevane-argent-dawn]

@Edevane-argent-dawn

The fact that there are two legitimate readings of this text indicates that something went wrong in solidifying it one way or the other.

My assumption is that early on in Legion design the Illidari - or at least some of them - were meant to be hostile forces, where you help the Wardens take them down. When it was changed, this character wasn’t updated to follow the new lore that the hostile Demon Hunters are Legion turncoats.

Ambiguity can be good in text, but this is a 5-man dungeon boss. We shouldn’t really be confused whether we have accidentally killed one of our allies.

[Aeneon-argent-dawn]

@Edevane-argent-dawn

I will serve MY people, the exiled and the reviled.

He’s referring to the imprisoned Illidari he mentions above. The Wardens imprisoned them with the intention of eternally letting them rot in a tiny prison. Torment enough, but for demon hunters it means they are stuck with a whispering demon within as well.

@Aeneon-argent-dawn

I gave up my flesh, my soul; my people shun me as a freak.

Fairly obvious that he means the blood elves shunning him here. It is his people.

@Aeneon-argent-dawn

Tirathon Saltheril yells: I will serve MY people, the exiled and the reviled.

He fully rejects his people (the blood elves), seeing only the exiled and the reviled (like him) as his own. He’ll kill those that cast them out.

I don’t think it is as open as you make it out to be, but it still answers the OP’s questions, which is how the blood elves see demon hunters.

@Edevane-argent-dawn

My assumption is that early on in Legion design the Illidari - or at least some of them - were meant to be hostile forces, where you help the Wardens take them down. When it was changed, this character wasn’t updated to follow the new lore that the hostile Demon Hunters are Legion turncoats.

A lot of interpretation.

It’s fairly clear to me at least, that he’s quite bitter at his people for shunning and casting him out (despite his sacrifice), and the Wardens for imprisoning him. So he wants to kill 'em.

@Edevane-argent-dawn

Ambiguity can be good in text, but this is a 5-man dungeon boss. We shouldn’t really be confused whether we have accidentally killed one of our allies.

He wanted to kill a Warden (our allies) for whatever reason. So we kill him, regardless of Legion affiliation or not. I don’t think it gets more complex than that for the “heroes”.

[Edevane-argent-dawn]

@Aeneon-argent-dawn

I don’t think it is as open as you make it out to be, but it still answers the OP’s questions, which is how the blood elves see demon hunters.

Having read through his quotes in more detail, you’re right on this point. I remembered that there was a disconnect between him being an example of an Illidari while also being a hostile threat, but misplaced where that disconnect lies.

My point of discussion is a tangent off that:

It’s fairly clear to me at least, that he’s quite bitter at his people / the Wardens for shunning and casting him out (despite his sacrifice). So he wants to kill 'em.´

This is likely the intention, yes - it’s just the execution falls a bit flat. Why would an Illidari want to kill the Slayer (when they go into the Vault to retrieve the Keystone) but also clearly state he wishes to “fulfill the dreams of my mentor”?

The obvious interpretation is that he’s been driven insane - but that isn’t shown in the text. None of the Illidari like the Wardens in the slightest (and the feeling is obviously mutual), but ignoring a Vault teeming with Demons to fight the Slayer for protecting a Warden starts drifting from “this character is losing their grip on reality” to “there’s a disconnect in the writing here”.

(I’m going into a long tangent about video game writing and ensuring that you clearly communicate your characters and tone, please don’t feel obligated to reply)

[Aeneon-argent-dawn]

@Edevane-argent-dawn

The obvious interpretation is that he’s been driven insane - but that isn’t shown in the text. None of the Illidari like the Wardens in the slightest (and the feeling is obviously mutual), but ignoring a Vault teeming with Demons to fight the Slayer for protecting a Warden starts drifting from “this character is losing their grip on reality” to “there’s a disconnect in the writing here”.

Yeah, I agree with you on that. He’s likely a bit nuts and turns on them, which is not uncommon among the Illidari even without imprisonment. There’s a lot of cases in the novel where Illidari just snap and rampage through the quarters.