Hello everyone, I'm trying to compile my qualms about the current sorry state of ret paladin into one big post. I'm hoping to get some discussion going that might even attract some blue attention and perhaps even assist in fixing this mess. I believe that if enough of us speak about these problems, we will be heard - however we have to keep the discourse polite and not let it devolve into crying and complaining.
So let me preface this by stating that Retribution as a spec currently is bad. This is not an opinion, this is objectively true. You will find yourself severely handicapped if you try to compete against many other classes and their specs in the game, in every aspect of the game. I will try to go over these things one by one, and offer feedback, perhaps possible solutions.
Rotation
Ret has a terrible rotation at the moment. It's slow, and once you get the hang of it, you will find yourself bored. You basically have 3 wet noodle basic abilities, and hitting those TV's should feel fun and rewarding. I find myself picking HoW as the 2nd tier talent just to have a 4th basic ability I can use, because without it, ret has extremely long downtime, if you get unlucky with the BoJ resets. This, as a whole encourages you to just stack haste so you can reduce the painfully long cooldowns, this seems to be a recurring theme for a lot of specs, and ret is no exception.
In my opinion, HoW should be a baseline ability, and along with that, all the other abilities could get a minor damage boost, and TV could take a small hit, as it is already a very hard hitting ability. All in all, ret feels extremely shallow, as though there is a hole that needs filling.
(Also this is nitpicking on my part, but changing the animation on TV to the colossus smash/death strike jumpy animation would help it feel more impactful, right now it looks like a basic ability. It feels like Ret got the short end of the stick with the new animations. I'd even take the old one from WoD over the current one.)
Single target and AoE
Ret has been a great class for picking off and eliminating single target threats in general. And it's all right like that as the class trope, no issue there. As the game gets more and more competitive, however, these discrepancies start to really matter, and make ret paladins an increasingly unappealing choice for a lot of raid encounters, not to mention dungeons.
So ret had no form of AoE for a long time. And as the classes started to get more and more streamlined, we got ourselves the good old DS, and even HotR for a while in WoD. Now, going back to the previous point of the rotation being slow and clunky, it translates to slow and clunky AoE as well. You have no AoE generator, which means you have to randomly single target attack things just so you can use a DS.
Now, the contrived AoE style would be all right, if it wasn't atrociously bad. Other classes, both ranged and melee can consistently outperform ret in AoE. Frost mages, DHs, Rogues to name a few. And this would STILL be okay, if they didn't do just as much if not -more- damage on single target. Ret needs a serious aoe buff, period.
Utility
Ret has the worst mobility in the game along with DKs. I know the two classes love arguing whose is worse, but I'm not getting into that right now. Besides mobility and maneuverability, ret is seriously lacking in meaningful abilities that make a difference. Sure, BoP is invaluable in some fights, and sure, WoG can sometimes be good for offheals, but let's not lie to ourselves - what you want in terms of class utility is increased damage and AoE stuns. BoK and BoW are neat, but definitely won't get you picked over a DH's increased magic damage taken debuff, and their massive range AoE stun on a short CD.
Ret in general is not a desirable spec to take. You don't see a ret a think to yourself. "Hmmh, I sure want this single target stun in my group, and the 5 to 10 min CD survival abilities that are only really needed if the group is doing badly."
So my suggestion is: bring auras back, bring seals back, bring anything to the table that makes Ret actually a spec people can consider. Give ret a CR, bring back the old blessings, or an alternative to healthstones, just give us anything.
PVP
All of the above issues could really be summed up in this section. Ret can be kited by nearly any class with a slow. Ret has good single target damage, and decent CC, but for some reason it needs to be this clumsy oaf that waddles like a helpless child without a healer to dispel them every 2 seconds. Where's emancipate? Where's two charges on BoF? The seal that actually gave ret a slow, where is all that? Trying to play ret in PvP in the current metagame is asking to get blasted by the myriad of rogues and BM hunters that do everything you can 3 times better while bringing more CC.
This statement applies only to rated PvP, and I'm not even going to mention how hard you'll be laughed at if you attempt to play RBGs as ret. World PvP can be fun with any class, because it's chaotic.
Conclusion
Alright, so whoever got this far, I wholeheartedly commend. I would love to see discussions and debates, ideas and just more voices. Whether you love or hate ret, let yourselves be heard.
As a disclaimer, I don't claim to be the best in any facet of the game, but I do consider myself very well experienced in all of them to make these claims about the current state of ret paladins.
Please, if you want to make an argument, make it sensible. If you are losing to rets in mythic 0 dungeons, LFR, BGs and world PvP, I'm not going to consider those valid.
5 Likes
22/09/2018 04:25Posted by YuulnaRet in general is not a desirable spec to take. You don't see a ret a think to yourself. "Hmmh, I sure want this single target stun in my group, and the 5 to 10 min CD survival abilities that are only really needed if the group is doing badly."
So my suggestion is: bring auras back, bring seals back, bring anything to the table that makes Ret actually a spec people can consider. Give ret a CR, bring back the old blessings, or an alternative to healthstones, just give us anything.
I've brought this up before on these forums on another thread. It's not entirely the case of that we don't bring anything to the table - it's just that we don't bring anything people care for. We don't bring anything that they WANT. And even when these things can be useful, it's only when the healer is slacking or when someone messes up - most of the time anyway. Obvious exceptions would be our current Greater Blessings but they're so underwhelming. A minor absorb shield (Always goes to tank) and a minor health/mana regen (Mostly goes to a healer). This is nothing compared to the old ones where we could bless the WHOLE group.
We need to get the old blessings back (and get rid of the current ones), as well as auras (Devotion aura was supposed to be a thing for all paladins in BfA). We need stuff that doesn't rely on on that another player isn't "keeping up".
Sadly everything you have listed has already been replied to by Blizz: Working as intended.
Class design has gone backwards. Until a certain tablet user is gone our design (and evidently most other specs) designs will continue to go into the gutter.
My advice is find a playstyle you like with the bare bones we have and try to refine it.
I'm personally hoping for better days and better devs to put some meat back on the skin and bones that class depth and design has become.
Class design has gone backwards. Until a certain tablet user is gone our design (and evidently most other specs) designs will continue to go into the gutter.
My advice is find a playstyle you like with the bare bones we have and try to refine it.
I'm personally hoping for better days and better devs to put some meat back on the skin and bones that class depth and design has become.
22/09/2018 11:47Posted by VachebringerMy PoV is, we are missing something, one or two spells, in AoE/cleave situation. The loss of AoE builders is an huge loss.
I completely agree with this, we need the kit to feel complete. right now it's lacking something, anyone who's played ret before Legion could tell that.
22/09/2018 12:08Posted by TuridasWe need to get the old blessings back (and get rid of the current ones), as well as auras (Devotion aura was supposed to be a thing for all paladins in BfA). We need stuff that doesn't rely on on that another player isn't "keeping up".
I agree with this too, in fact I would somewhat prefer is ret steered away from a pure dps spec into more of a supportive one. Give up some amount of damage for meaningful buffs and auras.
22/09/2018 18:07Posted by SchwzeneggerClass design has gone backwards. Until a certain tablet user is gone our design (and evidently most other specs) designs will continue to go into the gutter.
My advice is find a playstyle you like with the bare bones we have and try to refine it.
This is true as well, but it's up to us, players to try and make the devs change their minds, because we are clearly unhappy. We need to be persistent and not just accept that ret is a meme spec.
And don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have played ret for 10 years if I didn't like paladins conceptually. I'm going to keep playing ret, and I still feel pretty good when I get a massive DP proc with wings and judgment debuff on the target. I only get sad when I look at the numbers and realize that despite my best efforts, I'm lacking behind, and not due to lack of skill.
22/09/2018 23:30Posted by MinaqtRets desperately need Emancipate back. I don't get why it got removed. Class Fantasy? Rets has had a spammable root dispel since classic(Cleanse had no CD and broke magic), why was it suddenly not part of their fantasy to be able to break roots? I liked rets being a slow juggernaut that was hard to slow down, but could do tons of damage if they managed to get to you and you weren't careful.
I don't mind being generally slow but threatening either. The problem in PvP situations is that rets don't pose a threat due to how extremely easily they are dispatched or made completely irrelevant. I have been playing 2s in BfA season1 so far, and I'm lingering around 1850 rating. I haven't seen many mages in 2s, but when I do it's up to the mage to lose and not me. Ret is extremely one dimensional in PvP. We have no counterplay, the only thing we can do is stun and go in, no fancy ultra quick switching and teleporting to the other side of the arena or anything of that sort. Everything ret does is predictable, even the CC removal on their healer.
My solution to this would be either bringing emancipate back, or at long last making hand of freedom a non magic effect, because it truly doesn't need to be at this point. It's outdated as a magic effect, it has no reason to be one. They removed it on Shield of Vengeance, but not freedom, why? While doing that, they could make the 30% extra movement speed while freedom is active baseline, then Divine Steed wouldn't need any changes, I would be okay with that mobility.
23/09/2018 00:31Posted by TavilRotation
I don't know why blizzard thinks its ok for us to sit idle for 5 seconds doing nothing. Sometimes there is a target with low hp that needs to die fast im standing there doing nothing but auto attacking. That feels really bad. If we had 3 charges of CS i dont think we'd have this problem. Ofc there are many other solutions but this way our combat wouldnt change much except eliminating does 5 second idle timers.
I haven't thought of adding an additional charge to CS, it sounds like a boring solution to me, but even that would be better than nothing. I still advocate for HoW baseline, or bringing exorcism back to the kit just to have more abilities in general. Good idea anyway.
23/09/2018 00:31Posted by TavilAoE
I do think differently than most on this. Ever since dungeons turned into aoe fest in wotlk they lost most of their meaning. There is room for aoe in gameplay but not every 3+ group should be an aoe situtation imo.
As for ret, i dont think we need an aoe version of CS. It's perfectly fine if our aoe damage comes from divine storm alone. I think the legion legendary chest as baseline would be great. https://www.wowhead.com/item=151813/scarlet-inquisitors-expurgation
Excellent idea there, I did not mean to imply that we need HotR back for our AoE to function, but it worked in the past and it seemed prudent to suggest its return. Adding a stacking gimmick to DS would be a good idea, I really like it. While targeting a priority mob, our AoE would be sneakily charging up, it would make things more interesting and offer options for sure.
23/09/2018 00:31Posted by TavilDead Talents
This isnt particularly a ret issues but i think i still need to address it here. We had "Holy Wrath" talent for the entire legion. A talent no one picked, it was horrible but it still survived for an entire expension. I hope it doesn't happen this time. To name a few Divine Judgment, Justicar's Vengeance, retribution aura are some of the useless talents.
Sad, but true. Some talent rows are great, I'm thinking the 15, 30 and 100 ones mainly (except Crusade.) In my opinion WoA should be baseline, and Divine Judgment should just make Judgment bounce again like it did in Legion, then add a third option for AoE, it could even be HotR for all I know. Justicar's Vengeance is really silly - it was just fine in Legion I think. It's damage is pitiful now, completely gutted talent, I think it's just laziness why they left it in. Same with Crusade, instead of offering an actual third choice, we are left with a hollow reminder of what talent we picked all throughout Legion.
22/09/2018 04:25Posted by Yuulnaret has extremely long downtime, if you get unlucky with the BoJ resets.
Just perfect to squeeze in some instant Flash of Lights to support healing or throw a F.R.I.E.D. to boost aoe
22/09/2018 04:25Posted by YuulnaYou have no AoE generator
Consecration or Wake of Ashes. Wake of Ashes is actually insanely good for mythic+ and fun to use
22/09/2018 04:25Posted by YuulnaUtility
Ret has the worst mobility
Utility =! Mobility. Also Ret has tons of utility, as he can dish out hps similar to a tank (excluding dk tank). you should use BoP to avoid people having to move out of mechanics and can keep dps'ing, LoH is easily the best "oh sh*t" button and blessing of freedom is just sugar for most tanks.
22/09/2018 04:25Posted by Yuulnawhat you want in terms of class utility is increased damage and AoE stuns
well, we can choose between a long incap (repentance) or an aoe disorient (blinding light).
overall it just reads like you want to play another class, then go for it. if you cant see your own class' potential it is an player issue, not an class issue
@wgh
You have no clue.
Mobility =! Sustained damage
Survival =! Utility (control and support)
At the moment ret on pvp wise, we have good burst, low sustained, low mobility, low survival, good utility.
Class like dh have good sustained and burst, good mobility, good survival and low utility.
And i can talk about all specs and are in similar ways.
Ret is bad designed.
Go! Tell me i have no idea to use ret on pvp or pve ;)
You have no clue.
Mobility =! Sustained damage
Survival =! Utility (control and support)
At the moment ret on pvp wise, we have good burst, low sustained, low mobility, low survival, good utility.
Class like dh have good sustained and burst, good mobility, good survival and low utility.
And i can talk about all specs and are in similar ways.
Ret is bad designed.
Go! Tell me i have no idea to use ret on pvp or pve ;)
All the problems listed above are true, the ret paly is in a really bad spot atm, but the problem with the paladin community is that there is always people that play paladin as their 20th alt, who come on these forums and say things like "paladins have utility, they have bubble and bop" or some random pvp players who can't kite, saying "paladins have too much defensives", if these kind of players actually pushed higher, they would understand how much the ret paladin is useless utility and damage wise, compared to the other classes.
Bop Loh and others sure are utility spells, but they're useless in this meta, everything is dodgable, if someone needs bop, then they're doing something wrong, and that isn't a thing with high end players.
What is needed utility wise in this meta are mass cc on short cds and slows, while doing massive aoe damage, cause it's all about kiting. Tell me, where does the ret paly fit in there? with his bad mobility and his deadly down time?
Rogues, Dh's and frost mages are having 20-25k aoe dps average on m+ playing casually, while the paly get that only under Avenging Wrath+good rng, and they're ahead of us on the single target dps we're so proud of, why would someone pick a ret paly in such case?
Let alone how almost every class are absolutely crucial on some boss or another in Uldir (G'huun...) while the paly is just there for Bow.
And press F to pay respect for the PVP pink snail.
I am with the OP on this, we should be more like the Feral Druids and Shamans community, who were vocal and got their class update, even tho every elemental i saw in raids was top 5 to 10 at worst.
Bop Loh and others sure are utility spells, but they're useless in this meta, everything is dodgable, if someone needs bop, then they're doing something wrong, and that isn't a thing with high end players.
What is needed utility wise in this meta are mass cc on short cds and slows, while doing massive aoe damage, cause it's all about kiting. Tell me, where does the ret paly fit in there? with his bad mobility and his deadly down time?
Rogues, Dh's and frost mages are having 20-25k aoe dps average on m+ playing casually, while the paly get that only under Avenging Wrath+good rng, and they're ahead of us on the single target dps we're so proud of, why would someone pick a ret paly in such case?
Let alone how almost every class are absolutely crucial on some boss or another in Uldir (G'huun...) while the paly is just there for Bow.
And press F to pay respect for the PVP pink snail.
I am with the OP on this, we should be more like the Feral Druids and Shamans community, who were vocal and got their class update, even tho every elemental i saw in raids was top 5 to 10 at worst.
hurr muh class can't be the best in every aspect of the game it is bad design
PVP...Ret has good single target damage..
Considering the downtime and the broken scaling, Ret damage is acutally not high. My TV hits for about 8k in PvP and ĂŤ have 360 gear. The worst part is the mobility. When playing against a Mage I literally have to cast Steed + Freedom and instantly cancel the freedom just to get in Range. Than he blinks away 1 or 2 times and lows me with 60% again. It feels so disgusting und unfair, I can't wrap my mind around it. And when you finally connect, you cant even breake the ice barrier.
I've suggested things many times, but I don't think Blizzard's view of ret paladins is the same as others'.
I agree on making HoW baseline. (I haven't read everything you wrote tho, but I read the majority).
I wanna suggest giving Holy Wrath back as an aoe, make a talent that makes it hit everything instead of undead/demons or something. Take back that !@#$ty Blade of Justice, give us Consecration as baseline. Give paladins auras back. Give paladins seals, make it 1 hr buff or make it like an aura (nerf damage accordingly to balance them). Give rets Exorcism, add a talent that makes it usable on everything instead of undead/demons.
And give rets that ability that used a lot of mana and removed slows from the paladin itself. Make it cost 20-30% of base mana, about as much as flash heals cost. It can dispel 1 slow, or it can dispel all, u can add a talent where it dispels every slow and gives it a cooldown, ur choice.
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I wanna comment on people's experience against ranged players as rets. I've never lost a world pvp in 1v1 against a mage that people are complaining about, idk how you guys are feeling bullied by that class, I gank mages for fun. Idk how to put this... Mages aren't eligible to kill ret paladins. Not talking about Gladiators, talking about players that you see every day.
If you come here as a ret and complain about ur pvp experience... shame on you, learn your class for crying out loud, use right talents, make right decisions in your rotation, keep the advantage. Idk man, I haven't even had a close moment where I almost died vs mages. Duels are different, you guys aren't talking about that tho, pretty sure most of you have had this experience in world pvp.
I agree on making HoW baseline. (I haven't read everything you wrote tho, but I read the majority).
I wanna suggest giving Holy Wrath back as an aoe, make a talent that makes it hit everything instead of undead/demons or something. Take back that !@#$ty Blade of Justice, give us Consecration as baseline. Give paladins auras back. Give paladins seals, make it 1 hr buff or make it like an aura (nerf damage accordingly to balance them). Give rets Exorcism, add a talent that makes it usable on everything instead of undead/demons.
And give rets that ability that used a lot of mana and removed slows from the paladin itself. Make it cost 20-30% of base mana, about as much as flash heals cost. It can dispel 1 slow, or it can dispel all, u can add a talent where it dispels every slow and gives it a cooldown, ur choice.
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I wanna comment on people's experience against ranged players as rets. I've never lost a world pvp in 1v1 against a mage that people are complaining about, idk how you guys are feeling bullied by that class, I gank mages for fun. Idk how to put this... Mages aren't eligible to kill ret paladins. Not talking about Gladiators, talking about players that you see every day.
If you come here as a ret and complain about ur pvp experience... shame on you, learn your class for crying out loud, use right talents, make right decisions in your rotation, keep the advantage. Idk man, I haven't even had a close moment where I almost died vs mages. Duels are different, you guys aren't talking about that tho, pretty sure most of you have had this experience in world pvp.
I loved aoe in legion it was insane not to mention the passive that made Ds travel forwards!
P.s Bring back DS animation from WotlK! that’s what made me make a pally all those years ago!
In bfa we now have garbage aoe and garbage single target, life is sad. not to mention after all these years i’d say our rotations actuallly got more stale, bring back execution sentence, concentration, how, and exorcism as baseline + auras and seals.
P.s Bring back DS animation from WotlK! that’s what made me make a pally all those years ago!
In bfa we now have garbage aoe and garbage single target, life is sad. not to mention after all these years i’d say our rotations actuallly got more stale, bring back execution sentence, concentration, how, and exorcism as baseline + auras and seals.
23/09/2018 17:14Posted by Wolfbloodbring back execution sentence, concentration, how, and exorcism as baseline + auras and seals.
You do realize we wont have everything we have now plus bunch of new skills added as baseline. When asking for stuff to be baseline we should all be very careful. I don't like consecration or how or execution sentence. I'd hate to give up something useful for any of those. Seals sucked too. One thing i agree here is auras.
I love reading all these responses and opinions, people - please keep it going, tell your friends if you know any ret mains who are displeased, and see if we can get the conversation to an even larger scale.
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You run WoG in dungeons, and you need HP to use it, and also not everyone is an engineer. Disagree.
Everyone uses WoA, it's not a generator, it has a MASSIVE cooldown. A generator would have 5-10 sec cooldown like our other abilities.
Mobility is very much part of utility, compare yourself to an arms warr or a monk who can just stick to a target forever due to having permaslows, or a warrior who can charge or leap back into the fray after having to dodge things. Paladin has no displacement abilities, you have to move through things even when you are on your Divine Steed.
Also, you talk as though BoP and LoH have short cooldowns, they don't. You can use them once per encounter in a raid, and you can use around 5 BoPs, and 2-3 LoH per dungeon. Compare that to Chaos Nova on DHs, Solar Beam on balance druids, Leg Sweep on monks. These abilities are up for almost every pack you pull, or every other pack on a lower key. Also, these abilities are proactive, whereas ret's abilities are all reactive. Your team needs to be already dying for you to use LoH or WoGs. Proactive abilities are far more valuable because they let you control mobs, instead of mobs controlling you.
Repentance should be part of the base kit. I've not once had to pick it for a dungeon, because we already had a mage/monk/DH/rogue that could do 60 second CC with a baseline ability. Also, good luck using Blinding Light in a dungeon, the mobs will be CC'd for about half a second before it breaks on all of them.
Totally agree, we need to be outspoken and voice our concerns, repeatedly if we have to. I find myself benched a bit too often on Uldir mythic progress, and I honestly can see why. I'm just not as useful as other classes, and it's in my guild's interest to bring the best choices to kill a new boss. And here we thought this expansion was going to be about "bring the player, not the class".
Frost mages have always been the arch nemesis of rets, but the last time it was as bad as now was in Cataclysm, where they could beat you without taking a single point of damage. In principle, no spec should beat another spec just due to existing. It's awful balance. There should be counters, sure. Frost mage is a melee counter, but when every melee has more mobility, rets will just get bullied and abused by a frost mage. (No I'm not counting DKs here because they have grip and AMS)
I specifically stated in my original post that I was referring to rated PvP - aka arenas. You can beat people in the outside world most of the time, because there are no stakes, you're not losing anything if you die. People will play more recklessly and push the limits of their characters. Not to mention that the average skill level will be far lower than what you'd see in the arena or RBGs.
If a mage can't kite a ret, then they are just bad mages, that's all I can say. This goes for every ranged class bar maybe shadow priests and warlocks that don't really have means to permakite. Try catching a balance druid that just keeps shapeshifting and spamming moonfire on you till you want to quit life, or a BM hunter that will just run in circles while their pet eats your face. Still, frost mage is the most egregious example of countering a spec's whole existence. As I said in a previous post. If ret wins vs a frost mage, it's ALWAYS the mage's fault, and not because the ret is good.
I agree here with you, of course the proper solution would be to find the best thing to add/remove from the current iteration of ret. When we bring up suggestions, we don't demand that they should all be implemented, just things that we think would be good as a change. I certainly would not want Consecration, HoW, ES and Exorcism all back. Just one of them.
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Just perfect to squeeze in some instant Flash of Lights to support healing or throw a F.R.I.E.D. to boost aoe
You run WoG in dungeons, and you need HP to use it, and also not everyone is an engineer. Disagree.
Consecration or Wake of Ashes. Wake of Ashes is actually insanely good for mythic+ and fun to use
Everyone uses WoA, it's not a generator, it has a MASSIVE cooldown. A generator would have 5-10 sec cooldown like our other abilities.
Utility =! Mobility. Also Ret has tons of utility, as he can dish out hps similar to a tank (excluding dk tank). you should use BoP to avoid people having to move out of mechanics and can keep dps'ing, LoH is easily the best "oh sh*t" button and blessing of freedom is just sugar for most tanks.
Mobility is very much part of utility, compare yourself to an arms warr or a monk who can just stick to a target forever due to having permaslows, or a warrior who can charge or leap back into the fray after having to dodge things. Paladin has no displacement abilities, you have to move through things even when you are on your Divine Steed.
Also, you talk as though BoP and LoH have short cooldowns, they don't. You can use them once per encounter in a raid, and you can use around 5 BoPs, and 2-3 LoH per dungeon. Compare that to Chaos Nova on DHs, Solar Beam on balance druids, Leg Sweep on monks. These abilities are up for almost every pack you pull, or every other pack on a lower key. Also, these abilities are proactive, whereas ret's abilities are all reactive. Your team needs to be already dying for you to use LoH or WoGs. Proactive abilities are far more valuable because they let you control mobs, instead of mobs controlling you.
23/09/2018 10:36Posted by Wghwell, we can choose between a long incap (repentance) or an aoe disorient (blinding light).
Repentance should be part of the base kit. I've not once had to pick it for a dungeon, because we already had a mage/monk/DH/rogue that could do 60 second CC with a baseline ability. Also, good luck using Blinding Light in a dungeon, the mobs will be CC'd for about half a second before it breaks on all of them.
23/09/2018 12:40Posted by FdezI am with the OP on this, we should be more like the Feral Druids and Shamans community, who were vocal and got their class update, even tho every elemental i saw in raids was top 5 to 10 at worst.
Totally agree, we need to be outspoken and voice our concerns, repeatedly if we have to. I find myself benched a bit too often on Uldir mythic progress, and I honestly can see why. I'm just not as useful as other classes, and it's in my guild's interest to bring the best choices to kill a new boss. And here we thought this expansion was going to be about "bring the player, not the class".
23/09/2018 13:20Posted by ShougoWhen playing against a Mage I literally have to cast Steed + Freedom and instantly cancel the freedom just to get in Range. Than he blinks away 1 or 2 times and lows me with 60% again. It feels so disgusting und unfair, I can't wrap my mind around it. And when you finally connect, you cant even breake the ice barrier.
Frost mages have always been the arch nemesis of rets, but the last time it was as bad as now was in Cataclysm, where they could beat you without taking a single point of damage. In principle, no spec should beat another spec just due to existing. It's awful balance. There should be counters, sure. Frost mage is a melee counter, but when every melee has more mobility, rets will just get bullied and abused by a frost mage. (No I'm not counting DKs here because they have grip and AMS)
23/09/2018 15:25Posted by DaisuI wanna comment on people's experience against ranged players as rets. I've never lost a world pvp in 1v1 against a mage that people are complaining about, idk how you guys are feeling bullied by that class, I gank mages for fun. Idk how to put this... Mages aren't eligible to kill ret paladins. Not talking about Gladiators, talking about players that you see every day.
If you come here as a ret and complain about ur pvp experience... shame on you, learn your class for crying out loud, use right talents, make right decisions in your rotation, keep the advantage. Idk man, I haven't even had a close moment where I almost died vs mages. Duels are different, you guys aren't talking about that tho, pretty sure most of you have had this experience in world pvp.
I specifically stated in my original post that I was referring to rated PvP - aka arenas. You can beat people in the outside world most of the time, because there are no stakes, you're not losing anything if you die. People will play more recklessly and push the limits of their characters. Not to mention that the average skill level will be far lower than what you'd see in the arena or RBGs.
If a mage can't kite a ret, then they are just bad mages, that's all I can say. This goes for every ranged class bar maybe shadow priests and warlocks that don't really have means to permakite. Try catching a balance druid that just keeps shapeshifting and spamming moonfire on you till you want to quit life, or a BM hunter that will just run in circles while their pet eats your face. Still, frost mage is the most egregious example of countering a spec's whole existence. As I said in a previous post. If ret wins vs a frost mage, it's ALWAYS the mage's fault, and not because the ret is good.
23/09/2018 19:53Posted by TavilYou do realize we wont have everything we have now plus bunch of new skills added as baseline. When asking for stuff to be baseline we should all be very careful. I don't like consecration or how or execution sentence. I'd hate to give up something useful for any of those. Seals sucked too. One thing i agree here is auras.
I agree here with you, of course the proper solution would be to find the best thing to add/remove from the current iteration of ret. When we bring up suggestions, we don't demand that they should all be implemented, just things that we think would be good as a change. I certainly would not want Consecration, HoW, ES and Exorcism all back. Just one of them.
I might be crasy but I would most likely remove blessing of kings, and make blessing of wisdom work as, priest stamina buff, I would also remove inquistion and make it on to an aura that buffs everyone at 20 yards. instead. I would also give back to ret lights hammar as an talent choise instead of inquisition, and concentraition becomes base a skill for ret again.
would need some tweaking but I think this could make rets better.
would need some tweaking but I think this could make rets better.
24/09/2018 21:37Posted by RandysavageIF paladins should be this kitable, I honestly don't think it would be unreasonably for us to be able to 1-2 shot someone once we finally get near. That way people would actually have to worry about us. Okay I'm overexaggerating, but we need to have some trade off to our wheelchair handicap.
I think I mentioned this issue in a post before, yes. It's a very specific thing that only seems to apply to rets. Frost mage is designed to keep melees at bay, and other classes, like DHs and rogues as well as monks are far better at sticking to them. With how immobile paladins are in general, we get punished far, far worse than any other melee class in the game. It's unreasonable and breaks balance whenever you are paired against a mage as ret.
BfA so far is screaming at me from every corner, telling me to reroll rogue because they do everything better.
25/09/2018 01:04Posted by RandysavageTbh I kinda just kited a few too many times tonight. So when I wrote that previous post I was heated.
I think it's okay to get passionate about the things you care about, your previous post was still well within reason and I could totally relate to the pain.
25/09/2018 01:04Posted by RandysavageCS does very little damage and we all deter from using it when possible. So why is there a limited number of CS? What's the upside? None.
This seems to suggest one of two things balance wise. Either we need 1 more stack of CS (or even infinite), or CS's damage simply needs to be buffed.
I've compared a rogue friend of mines builders to mine, and his are actually a portion of his dps not a fraction.
This got me very interested, I love the point of view. It inspired me to check damage spread over a 5 minute long dummy practice. Here are the results:
https://imgur.com/a/Hjc8XeP
I used the basic talent set I usually raid with, that being - 2/3/-/3/-/-/1
Now this means that my personal damage spread is a bit off, since I never got a real execute phase. HoW's damage would be likely much higher up in an actual boss fight. I think anywhere between 5-7%
Still there is an absolutely MASSIVE discrepancy between TV and everything else. I think the correct approach would actually be nerfing TV and buffing everything else. I also found it very interesting how auto attacks are the 2nd highest form of damage. Indeed having infinite crusader strikes would only serve to bloat the ludicrous numbers TV already does.
Other interesting facts about this test
- DP proc amount: 10 (I know it's currently bugged.)
- Art of War proc amount: 8
- Righteous Verdict uptime: 94% (I think this is quite good considering I'm not running inquisition.)
- This was done at 372 ilevel, with no raid buffs applied
25/09/2018 01:04Posted by RandysavageTo me having to cast Repentance in PvP feels very punishing, as I'm already behind my target and casting 1.6 seconds doesn't help me close the distance. What can be done to solve this? Reverting it back to a longer cd but with instant cast? Probably would work. Buffing paladins main handicap in pvp would also work. As people have suggested giving Divine Steed a movement impairment cleanse would do the same. Removing CD on cleanse would also work.
I'm very torn about this. If Repentance became an instant cast at this point and time, ret could see a huge surge in rankings. But as it is now, it's mostly just there to soak an interrupt for your healer, even if you get it off, it's at the cost of moving and doing damage for that 1.6 (most likely 2+ due to damage pushback) seconds. If it became an instant cast and acted akin to a monk's Paralyze or a DH's Imprison ability, it would be fairer.
The previous point of nearly half our damage being TV, I think it would help in PvP too if we had a more even damage distribution. Even then, we would still have the mobility problems. The most obvious thing to me there is either HoF no longer being a magic effect, or the freedom effect during Divine Steed that was mentioned a few times now. I'd be fine with Emancipate as well, even if it was a PvP talent, although then ret would get a 2nd "must have" talent.
I also had this idea about bubble turning into a toggle ability and having a moderate cooldown. (I'm thinking 30-60 seconds here.) It would then rapidly drain your mana bar or until you cancel it. If you used it on max mana, it would last up to 4 (or 3) seconds, which is exactly a 50% nerf to its current duration. Otherwise you could much more freely use it as a self cc removal, or to charge in against opponents that want to abuse you. This might be too OP, but I think it could be worked with.
25/09/2018 07:12Posted by RandysavageAnd I don't just mean damage wise.
We need to offer something unique to the holy theme for both PvP and PvE. I'm just throwing ideas out but something like Crusader Strike giving a debuff to the target, which slows cast speed and reduces armor? Call it Heresy :)
Or maybe have Crusader Strike add a debuff that has 20 stacks and makes the target take xxx amount of holy damage from each hit from you or allies?
A lot of things could be done to further emphasize ret's role as a hybrid class. Not just because we can off-heal, but also because we do mixed damage. I thought ret could have a mix of the current damage amplifying debuffs existing. Ergo 2.5% extra magic and physical damage taken. This would ever so slightly increase the incentive to have a ret in your group.
I liked the CS idea as well, it could have the old Seal from WoD incorporated into it. Just a little dot. That would even help us with our current AoE struggles at the moment if we could stack the dot individually on mobs while building up for DS's.
25/09/2018 07:12Posted by RandysavageCool idea! I know a lot of my friends hate bubble. To me though this feels a lot like a mage spell. I would actually like this idea combined with the current Shield of Vengeance. Imagine trying to soak big hits in order to be able to dispense a big load of judgement eventually. Could interact with Blessing of Kings?
Reflecting on this ability, I think it would be far too OP for PvE purposes with a short cooldown. So I thought the more damage you take, the quicker it would drain your mana. I think in general mana should be used for more than just spamhealing yourself when you are forced away from a boss in PvE, or dancing around a pillar in PvP. So in theory you could build up a massive shield explosion with Shield of Vengeance like that, which could be fun. Anyway, this is very far into the hypothetical possibilities that will never happen.
About the CC tier talents.
Fist of Justice
I'd prefer a static cooldown like 35-40 seconds. That way if we get CC'ed kited too much at least we wouldn't lose on our stun cooldown.
Repentance
The cast time is a major downside for this talent. First of all, as a melee we don't have tools to get other melee off of us. If there is a melee sitting on us it becomes very hard to for us cast repentance. That is a weakness i can accept. The problem is when we stop for casting our target keeps moving. As a unique immobile melee class letting our target get away is no small downside. Our uptime suffers greatly. I think 1 minute cd instant version worked fine. But if they dont wanna give us instant cc then they need to make repentance castable while moving.
Blinding Light
This breaks too easily. Not from our damage but random dots and stuff. It should have a dmg threshold before breaking like hex.
Fist of Justice
I'd prefer a static cooldown like 35-40 seconds. That way if we get CC'ed kited too much at least we wouldn't lose on our stun cooldown.
Repentance
The cast time is a major downside for this talent. First of all, as a melee we don't have tools to get other melee off of us. If there is a melee sitting on us it becomes very hard to for us cast repentance. That is a weakness i can accept. The problem is when we stop for casting our target keeps moving. As a unique immobile melee class letting our target get away is no small downside. Our uptime suffers greatly. I think 1 minute cd instant version worked fine. But if they dont wanna give us instant cc then they need to make repentance castable while moving.
Blinding Light
This breaks too easily. Not from our damage but random dots and stuff. It should have a dmg threshold before breaking like hex.
25/09/2018 15:36Posted by TavilFist of Justice
I'd prefer a static cooldown like 35-40 seconds.
I approve of this, HoJ is one of the longest stuns in the game, but with how overloaded other kits are with various CC types, I think this would still be balanced.
25/09/2018 15:36Posted by TavilRepentance
I think a 3-4 sec duration with it being instant cast would be a good solution, but it would likely turn it into the mandatory talent for PvP. I guess it's still an all right solution though.
25/09/2018 15:36Posted by TavilBlinding Light
I think this ability only needs its cooldown changed to 1 min. Right now it's quite pitiful in PvE and in PvP other classes just have far more reliable options. I'm thinking mages and warlocks being able to spam poly and fear respectively, and rogues able to sap at the start of a match, as well as when they vanish. Just turn it to a 1 min CD.