Ret Paladin... The support class none want

Funny… how Blizzard claim that Augmentation Evoker will be the FIRST real support class in the game ever… Clearly show they do not know their own game.

Ret Paladins ARE a support class… and a mediocre one at best.
At least, that is the feeling i get.

I have 436 gear, about 2k rating in mythic +. (just started), and good stats for my gear.
M16 keys are the next step for me, and should have been for some time even !!!.

But, it takes FOREVER, to get invited to a group… as NONE want a ret paladin… EVEN if you have 20+ more item level than other classes.

People avoid Ret paladins like the plague on mythic 16+ !!!

Sure, the class is very selfsustain able, and can help with other things in a group.
BUT, people do not care about such… they want DPS.

Why take a ret paladin that can do 70-80 k single target.
When other classes do 120k + (with LOWER gear!!!).
The faster you burn the mobs and bosses… the less time you have to deal with them.
DPS always win… And Ret Paladin is mediocre at dps as best.

And while they buff a lot of the other classes in the patch tomorrow…
Ret paladin get 2 % buff…
Meaning they will STILL be a Support plague that none wants.

Do not get me wrong, i REALLY like the playstyle of the new Ret Paladin.
But, seriously… they need 10- 15% Buff… minimum!!!

I would not be surprised if the Augmentation will have MORE dps than ret paladin.
While also giving extra dps and support to whole group.

FIX RET !!!

My ret Paladin
Fjanten - Ravencrest (EU).

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I see no way for them to get the balance right on this one. They havent been able to get this right in the past, why would they now?

Other then increasing groups to 6 ppl per group (dungeons, M+ etc) and the 6th slot being specific for a support spec, this will not go down well.

Any “pure” dps spec they outdmg will riot over their placement (not just Rets). So they must always be at the bottom while increasing the rest of the groups dps to not be at a net loss and we all know this will never be the case.

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I think the release of the Augvoker will be the Death of Ret Paladins.

Why would you ever take a weak Ret dps that can only help with extra healing…
While the Augvoker seem to be able to give TONS potency to the entire group.

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I dont do much pve but has Ret ever been taken specifically for the off-healing they bring over a higher DPS class?

It really feels like that has never been the case but if Augment are close to any dps spec in dmg they will then take a backseat if ppl deem their support strong enough.

Another issue is if their support stacks or not (havent taken a look at the spec what so ever so far) but will there ever be a reason to have more then 2 of them? If there is its probably cuz their support is group wide and not raid wide?

Hilarious thread.

Ret paladin do great damage. They are a dps class, not a support class.

Them having good utility will never make them a “support” class.

2 Likes

From my point of view it has been the case that Ret was seen as a support spec in the past, mainly vanilla and TBC and not only with Ret, you know the hybrid tax.

They have tried to make the support part happen and then pruned it with “bring the player, not the class” motto only to backtrack on it (you know with raid wide buffs etc).

So now when they actually make a spec that is designed to be a support, whats the end goal for making ONE spec like it and how they gonna balance it all?

I dont actually think Ret dmg is much of an issue atm but i do think ppl will take issue if the support spec is anywhere close to their own dps.

This is just not true, while the other classes might have a more balanced kit where they can do decent AOE and decent ST we have to pick either BLASTER ST or BLASTER AOE we don’t have that in between like some other classes…

but the value of the massive DPS you do in AOE or ST is more than enough to balance out your overall…

you might not be topping the dps in raids on pure single target but in terms of M+ ret AOE and CD timers are probably one of the best if not the best DPS in the game having wings ready for almost every pull in a dungeon is broken

yes, other classes might be doing 120k dps on the bosses when you are doing 70-80k, but are they doing 200k-300k every single pull in a dungeon? no, they are not…

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There is no “pure” dps specs anymore. Everyone is hybrid like it or not. Everyone kept crying for healing etc. so from rogues to warriors to mages everyone has actualy self-healing abilities or multiple was to become immune to damage or significantly reduce it.
While absorbtions like for example lock have not healing spells but they function as such since instead of giving them back a portion of their health it prevents them a huge portion of damage taken in so the end result is even better because you push preventatively an absorbtion instantly - that is usually off the GCD - instead of having to cast or use instant heal that is on GCD.
On top of that lock can drain life, mages depending on specs/build can cauterize, jump back in time etc.
The healing for warriors is insane compared to what you were as a warrior in classic or in BC. The class fantasies are gun for pure dps classes in the sense that they can heal and they can heal a lot.

Ret paladin can be actually very much viewed as a support class because 9 out of 10 people takes them for their healing potential and immunities for party members that can save the group from wipes. The problem is no one is planning on wipes. If you go into a high mythic key you expect everyone to excell and dont die to the mechanics which is very much an easy task if you know what you are doing and the others know it too. So if you have a decent team who knows what to do that pretty much negates the need of life saving abilities from others like ret paladin because you shouldnt and wouldnt get into a situation where you need saving.

With that “requirement” out of the window ret has medicore dps to offer. Its aoe is okay and its single target is simply bad compared to most of the other dps classes.
When I say its dps is medicore it means its pretty much in the middle of the pack of dps classes …so its not terrible but no one wants the medicore dps when they can grab a top dps class and you have plenty option to choose from over the ret paladin.

My opinion btw comes from experience because I play with multiple classes including ret paladin in 442 itemlvl.
I have the 2.5k achievement and earned it early in this season and got everything 18+ timed. The only reason I didnt finish the all 20s for portals is that I usually wait with that until the end of the season so I can get better geared and more experienced groups waaay easier. Portals are just a bonus and not that amazing at all so im not in a rush to get them …but I could easily do all 20s within two weeks especially now with the changes around the affixes.

Sadly ret paladins got the same treatment for 6-7 years now. They will get strong buffs usually toward the end of an expansion or towards the end of a patch for 2-3-4 weeks only to be nerfed back to be medicore again.
This is what they did during the latest “rework” they allowed at the end of the season ret paladin to be strong …they knew people will complain but this is the time when it doesnt matter because by the end of the season every "serious people already achieved whatever they wanted pvp or pve wise.
Now ret paladin are back. Over a few short weeks into the season they were nerfed week after week …they got even some last second nerfs as usual or shadow nerfs that the devs put into the logs a day or two after the release so for most people went unnoticed. This is an awful and detestable practice from the blizzard dev team.

I dont know what is their problem but we know there i no paladin dev assigned to the class. They have warrior dev for example and once they are finished with their stuff they are thrown at the paladin class to do something.
Blizzard promised after shadowlands they will pay attention to feedback …this was a lie for some classes like paladin. They ignored every single thing ret paladins asked for …like the resolution for the mobility issues. If you are familiar with ret paladins and their forums you know that ret paladins never asked for damage buffs …there are bigger issues that we wanted to see resolved.
During the development phase we barely got a page and a half notes and communication about the spec …meanwhile you could scroll the notes on warriors for literally minutes - no joke -. Its still all there on the feedback forum you can see it for yourself.
The same treatment applies to the paladin class as a whole. They went against the wished of prot paladin and holy paladins all the time and ignored any and all feedback. Prot paladin ended up okay but not better. They baked in everything into 1 ability and 1 mechanic making the gameplay of prot extremely boring and making the holy power pointless as a resource when you spending it on pretty much one thing defensively …take healing out of the equiation here. So holy power is pointless and the gameplay has no variety and its simple as hell.
On top of that they put a talent on the paladin class tree instead of ret paladin tree for ret paladins to buff their armor and hp …and to compensate for this they nerfed the prot paladin scaling twice! by a huge margin. Later in this season prots will fall of a bit because of this …that is why you see 4% damage buff already to give them something but defensively they are getting into a worse position because hp scaling was nerfed from 50% to 30% and armor scaling was nerfed from 30% to 20% and more.
Now that we get a new tier and item lvl rises prot paladin scaling will be worse compared to all the other thank we didnt get this nerf so in a month or two you will feel the effect of this nerf if they dont balance it out somehow.
And the joke on top of this is that soon after they created this new talent for retri and forced down the throat of all 3 specs - sanctified plates - they nerfed ret paladin survivability back within weeks so its almost at the same crappy level as it was …and they nerfed its damage too so the rework was pointless and ret paladin are crap again.

The devs clearly hate the paladin class. But its not a surprise when warrior or rogue devs are assigned to work on it …ofc they will nerf the other class they dont play with to the ground. There should have been a paladin dev for the class but apparently Bobby boy needed 2 more yacths so they didnt had the money to hire someone to be a full time paladin class dev.

The devs clearly dont know what are they doing.
This applies to the content too. The story is boring and crap …we have a bunch of dragon we suppose to hate but they are actually the original denizens and true children of Azeroth …and the titans manipulated and poisoned them …so why would I side with our Aspects when the og dragons are the good guys apprently… But also I dont care about the og dragons because they are new characters that I know pretty much nothing about or their past or their conflict so who cares?
Also Wrathion and the others ignore the fact that their former home is filled with void and faceless ones …while they were actually there in the raid fighting with us. The complete disconnect is awful.

And the features? Zskara vault? A throwaway content that was boring already after the first week …same applies to that island too. I only kept doing it for like 3 more weeks because there was a mount reward with time gated mats you had to gather to make it.
After I got the mount I didnt go back and never will because I have no reason to.
Zaralek cavern? A couple week of content …quickly becoming obsolete if you are semi-active raider or mythic+ player. The world bosses are clearly bugged since the release because I have never seen any drops from their loot table in any of my raids …and I play multiple classes so done them multiple times each week and the whole raid got 0 loot drop all the time.
The “invasion” point is the same …pathetic lowlvl reward with boring quests.
And with the release of the new patch its obsolete content again.

No wonder that the player base shrinking constantly to a new all time low. The devs deserve it for the awful job they made. Sure the idea of dragons and og Azeroth was appealing but they failed to deliver quality work on every front except for the art team which always delivered top-notch work.

I always loved the game but recently I started to feel like it should die just to give the devs a wake-up call because they didnt get it after BFA and Shadowlands. Sure they said they will change their stance toward the playerbase and make a better game but it was all for the show …they said what we wanted to hear to lure players back to but the game again but they just keep failing.
They want to cater to the hypercasuals or the boosters. They made this new gearing system too only to cater to boosters. Now boosters have one more tier of gearing they can offer so more casual can buy more boost for mythic level gear. This is just pathetic. They are so keep on boosting wow token sales they are willing to kill the game for it. Sure the casuals will return for a month in the patch and buy everything then quit …but you make the game pointless to the rest of the people who wanted to actually work for their gear and achievements. Now that everyone can buy anything at a fairly cheap price nothing worth anything.
And when a hypercasual who bought boost runs and has amazing gear and scores joins a grp and dies within 1 minute twice because they have no knowledge of the dungeons or raids they leave or curse at other blaming them for their own failiures.
This creates and increasingly toxic environment for all making more and more ppl quit.
You devs made the decision to push wow token sales knowing full well its spiraling down faster and faster and you will eventually reach a point where only casuals will play the game …and once there is a new shiny thing they will just move on and you will have no player base. Then you will make the game free to play and have it running for a few more years until its all dead. GJ!

2 Likes

Ret paladins are in demand. They do big damage in keys, and they don’t die easily. As well as having tools to help with most of the current affixes.

Your problem is that there are so many people playing ret paladin that competition for the ‘ret spot’ in keys is particularly fierce.

Sometimes less is more, didnt read all but did note 2 parts that fairly much contradicts eatchother so just gonna respond to those.

You say that yet go on to say

So tell me, why would a group take a Ret if everyone has tools to save themselfs? Anything special Ret offers that Holy and prot doesnt or do even better?

For a Ret to be of actual help in any real scenario in a group/raid both the healer(s) and the other class in question must have screwed up and the Ret paid attention aswell while then losing dps. This is not a good support class, while the new actual support spec buffs the group while just doing their rotation. They lose nothing and dont even need to pay attention to it.

Imo your view as to what counts as support has long been dead.

Edit: btw "because 9 out of 10 " doctors recomends (insert toothpaste name)… always 9 out of 10 ^^

Ret Paladin feels so great atm, not going to lie.

Sure, our Single Target DPS is not the best and very trinket dependent, but in M+ I feel like we can shine so well.

First of, we have insanely good and sustainable AOE dps which is great for M+.
Our utility is really second to none imo, with freedom, bop, bubble for ourselves, cleanse , the aoe blind, and even turn evil or repentence for affix where need be.

Don’t see a reason to really complain here and if you have struggle getting groups rn, it usually is because people want certain set ups or just get carried or w/e. Make your own groups with your key and you can avoid this issue ^^

2 Likes

Totally agree on every single word you said.

I’ve been ret paladin since I started in WotLK, and still feel off. :slight_smile:

That’s why I went to be holypaladin instead. :slight_smile:

And the boosting and such is also so ridiclious… they ban people for buying or adverting gold, yet they force the whole avg. pub Joe to buy boost, etc etc… wtf? They’re so delusional…

ALTHO!!! :smiley: I have to admit, I never liked the playstyle ret pala until now. But for sure should be good some BUFF instead of debuff always. :smiley:

Thanks for the tip, to push 20+ keys end of the season. :smiley: I never thought about it. :slight_smile:

its over ret is absolutely dead no place for rets anymore

like why would anyone they do less damage than other meeles and you dont even need their utility anymore cause everyone already prepared holy pally

gg dead specc again time to reroll mage / augmentation i give up finally learned my lesson ret will never be competetive

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I kinda understand the new direction they go in with the support classes but not in this classic 5 man dungeon format. I can’t really understand why a support class does damage in the first place. For real, why? It must only SUPPORT their allies and EMPOWER them to do damage, not for them to be damage dealers.

I also think that some other classes need support specs asap. Historically and lore wise, paladin is just that, a holy knight doing holy damage while supporting their allies in battle. I mean, we have a kit designed for supporting others, with off heals, cleanse, freedom, immunities etc. IMHO hybrid classes (druid/monk/paladin) should’ve been the first to receive this ‘support’ role spec as it makes the most sense for them to be just that. But what does actually makes sense anymore? Tauren rogues and Lightforged Draenei Walocks?! Lmao

I still enjoy playing my Paladin as much as I enjoy my Druid and I won’t start to chase meta classes that I do not actually enjoy playing…but idk man, this direction they go in feels really weird and it definitely puts some classes on the bench…

Ret pala is litteraly pumping thoose numbers on aoe, With support from augmentation 250-300k overall sometimes. Only single target is lacking, you need absurd levels of haste to do good single target and also RNG on execution sentence crits. I just feel like single target is not stable. Also your single target is heavily affected by another form of crit RNG beacon trinket, as it is a must have trinket for single target pretty much. I think they need to bring back seraphim or inquisition to help us little. No idea why they always remove fun abbilities. I never dissliked Inquisition/seraphim. Also you have Ret aura, Bop, dispell. Loh, Sac, I can not even count how many times i saved people In m+ with LOH or BOP or Saved tank with Sac when he did not have deff cds.Not to mention our crazy durability you are the last to die pretty much, it is just insane how much can this spec passively mitigate dmg. I see it in Mythic sarkareth 1st phase my healthbar is always fine compared to other classes there.

Really idc if i get banned for this, learn to play really retribution can do alot more ST then 70 - 80k dps. I am tired of little kids who doesnt understand their class on how to play it.

Are you talking in the single target specs or the M+ specs it is a massive difference between these when it comes to single target

“Ret pala is litteraly pumping thoose numbers on aoe, With support from augmentation 250-300k overall sometimes”

Have you missed what other classes do in AoE dmg with Augvoker buffs. ???.
Mages: 1.7 MILLION DPS… the highest i have seen… probably higher now.
Shadow priests: 1 mil + dps… easily.
and more…

Still think that 250 - 300 k AoE ret paladin with augvoker buff is impressive ???

I had a Fury Warrior in my group… doing 140 -160 k single target dps.
When i used wings, i could get to 90k+ dps… and then drop to 70+ after wings.
We both had similar gear. 439 - 440 gear. (i have 439 now).

Which tells me that Ret Paladins are SERIOUSLY underpowered.

439 gear, 2.2 k myt rating… 20 - 30 min to get into simple M16 keys.
Ret Paladin is DEAD!!!.. and Blizzard give 2% buff… pathetic.
If they gave 20% buff, then we could probably start to be competetive.

Lets do some fun simplified math. 90 k dps at start. (aprox gear needed 440+).
90k x1.02 = 2 % = 91.8 k dps… still at the bottom. Blizzards real buff.
90k x 1.2 = 20% = 108 k dps… Still low. what i think would be minimum req.
90k x 1.5 = 50% = 135k dps. finally competetive.

It is not this simple tho…
But, blizzard giving Ret Paladin 2 % buff, and thinking that would actually do anything ???.
10 - 15 % is needed minimum to see effects.

Simply Put, Ret is Dead !!!.

My Ret Paladin.
Fjanten - Ravencrest (EU).

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because scaling with versa is rubbish!
last week i pushed keys and healed as holy pala. i saw jokes like 600k aoe opener from the druid and even my pala had 110k aoe in the first freehold pack. these three packs and the little ghosts were dead after 10 seconds without a hero! and that was lvl 23. I thought I can’t see right???
ret can never keep up with something like that. and these dps classes also had 160k and more single target dmg!!!

so no wonder nobody invites ret to the group… i don’t play mine either because i have to wait forever for inv!

and then we’ll take a closer look at how much aoe mage and spriests knock out… they also don’t have a ridiculous single target dmg and important buffs like hero and skips are easily possible.

what can ret do again? Oh yes…