The paladin discord has confirmed that changes made earlier when buffing ret enables them to gain up to 4 procs on proc based items, when hitting with crusader strike and divine storm (per target). The latter also has a chance to get reset with the T10 set bonus. This leads to these items which were already very strong for this class having unintentially large dps increases, especially in situations with 2-4 targets. It really looks like some unintended interaction akin to those you have previously removed from the game.
I remember the old bluepost where the ret buff was revealed there were some explanations of the purpose of the buffs were. To quote that post we have:
“We also wanted to be very careful not to overbuff Ret now, and cause issues for ourselves in a later tier such as Icecrown Citadel, where Ret has an extremely powerful tier set.” and " Not a Goal – Make Retribution competitive with the highest output specs and classes in PvE." and now the sims show that the only melee that i projected to be higher up that ret on single target are feral which also got an enormous buff, while their ranking on multiple targets shot through the roof.
Now that the propesied ICC is closing in, it might be time to take another look at the big buffs you have given. It is time to live up to your own words “We will continue to monitor class representation as we have been, and will make additional adjustments if things start to play out in a way that deviates significantly from how we and other Wrath enthusiasts would expect them to. We also may roll back these changes or make further adjustments if we feel this adjustment went too far”. Because to many of the non-ret players this feels very biased.
If you watch old world first videos, Ret was one of the top dps in the game on progression and fighting for top 1-5 on meters for many fights. Of course during Ulduar at the bottom of Ret dps progression nobody wanted to hear this, but now we’re entering ICC where Ret pre-buff would have been really good.
During ICC days Ret used to cancelaura the Shadowmourne buff because they could stack it so quickly that it was more dps to just constantly get Chaos Bane damage by cancelling the str buff at 10 stacks. If they can stack it even faster now, well this is going to be hilariously degenerate.
I play mage, but I don’t see how my class i relevant for the discussion. Interesting that when discussing ret someone always brings up warrior even though it was not a part of the discussion. Must be some underlying complex. If you want to be a part of the discussion, try to actually contribute to it.
It is what you say Bigbazz, I also have memories of ret performing very well in ICC back in original WOTLK. Why would they then need the buffs now?
When i started the thread I deliberately did not referrence the Hand of Reckoning change, since I do not think they would revert that buff (even though I think that buff i also over the top in ICC ret). I am mainly concerned about the proc interactions, since they have changed other effects that worked weirdly that had less effect on dps. It also inflates the dps gains of a few items compared to others, which feels like bad design.
Also, as Aggrend wrote in his ret buff post. Ret would already be strong in ICC and its possible to revert it when the class will perform well without them. Then i think it is time to own up to those words.
They still would get a big dps increase of both even with the SoV buff reverted, and still perform very well.
We all know ret would not be at arms level without those items, since arms dps is much lower than ret now, and you don’t have TaJ or shadowmourne yet.
The hand of reckoning buff did very little to those, but the SoV change very much affect those items as i wrote in the start of the thread. So it seems like you don’t understand how that interaction works.
You vastly overestimate arms dps. Arms already reach arpen cap in toc and is still garbage.
Seems like you need to do some reading on how things are working.
Oh yes I wrote it, but it is based on the testing done in the lightclub discord. It is not something i made up. You trying to deny it does not make it work differently.
Just something I would like to reiterate, regarding the TAJ numbers:
The SOV changes only gave us one extra chance to proc per Crusader strike and divine storm. A LARGE portion of the sim DPS that we gained is not from SOV changes in Phase 2, but is from stuff like righteous vengeance and judgment debuff and SoV debuff application not proccing before on the sim. As it should have. Tiny abomination in a jar was always going to be strong, and even without SoV changes would have been considerably strong, likely only a couple hundred DPS worse (currently +1200 DPS).
If you don’t believe me, check the GitHub pull request.
Sim people wanted to wait for ptr confirmation and be conservative and so TAJ always undersimmed by a huge margin and now people have a mistake impression of how strong TAJ is supposed to be.
(from Surveillant on the Light Club discord)
Out of all the crap that can proc TaJ, the phase 2 buff accounts for a single digit percent of the motes we can build.
The trinket is just utterly insane for rets, to the point of if you don’t have one you basically can’t play the class.
Interesting since I saw a post from the same person confirming 4 procs from CS, which contradicts that statement. Yes we confiirmed that
You can get 4 even
if RV
CS damage, seal damage, dot application, rv
My point is that since that trinket already is ridiculous for rets, why make it even better? My point when making this thread is that while the buffs ret got that justifiably made them usable in ulduar goes against the stated goal by making them one of the highest dps speccs in ICC. I am just pointing out that it is probably time to review if the buff is warranted now that ret get their powerful tier set mentioned in the bluepost and a very powerful trinket.
Then your concern is with the trinket, not the phase 2 buffs.
Which I’d argue is correct even, but if you nerf the everliving crap out of TaJ rets are 1) gonna go for other trinkets (Deathwhispers and DBW) and likely be in need of further buffs.
Well, it’s either that or “buff every class that’s not the best and then buff content so it doesn’t become too easy”. Unfortunately, nerfing is less work for Blizzard.
For me they shouldn’t have messed with it initially, but unfortunately they did. But changing every class isn’t the answer. Not sure what the answer is to the mess they’ve created unnecessarily.
Still, thats an 25% increase on crit or 33% increase on non-crit. A couple of hundred dps lower is not a lot in total dps, but quite a lot for a single item.
My concern is not the trinket, it’s the interaction of an unwaranted buff interacting with it. I think it’s fine that you get a really strong trinket that synergises well with your class, but it was really stong in OG wotlk, why make it even stronger? However, since you say it’s such a minor increase so then it should be no problem to remove the SoV buff, right?
I think one answer is reverting buffs. Like they stated they could do in the blue post when they made the first buff. I think the SoV buff paladins got is a buff that they could remove now that ret are going to doing very well.
The actual dps gain from this isn’t really that big (it was all about HoR), but the quality of life change you’re screwing rets with isn’t going to make people happy.
Or prots for that matter. But go on, piss off your local tank to get back at rets for practically no gain
