well, rogues are immortal AND everywhere, so if rets had the mobility of rogues i wouldnt even consider it even 
otherwise i really like the proposed changes, they seem to be going into the right direction. my biggest concern is with mobility and maybe that our small def cd is on the gcd.
for raids, mobility needs to get buffed and some utility that is not only useful when someone failed but can be used in a planned way. loh is a classic but a pure, unplannable “oh shoot” cd.
i hope someday visibility in general (and especially for melee) gets addressed. a lot of deaths happen bc we dont see anything, not because of ability or gameplay issues.
even when using the “essential spells only” graphics setting, so much unnecessary clutter is shown.
because there is camera collision and no transparency, i need to zoom in all the way esp in tight places (sbg) or where there are trees or tapestry to not get my camera blocked. but when zoomed in i get blinded by my own abilites (hello glitterstorm) which i dont need to see this prominently bc I JUST PRESSED THE EFFING BUTTON but instead cant see stuff on the ground im about to die in. or try dodging the fire in aa at the bird boss when you need to basically stand under its wings to hit it.
if my character is able to see, so should i.
nevermind neverwinter nights 2 solving this ages ago with removing camera collision and making stuff transparent between cameras and players. one can dream.
looking forward to ptr.
Please delete seraphin , is juste annoyng
aura for alone is useless ( for passive you find best way )
back judgement for = red for cc , blue for mana ( hpal ) +1 sacred power for vindicte ,and tank protec buff and longer range
rebuild talent because for monoi talent we need to take aoe talent ??? so
no bluid for mono or multi target
that all for now
I have one more request i forgot.
It would be really nice to have an AoE hammer of justice as a talent. It would help a lot with viability in M+. The CD could be increased to 1.5m to compensate.
My two cents from a since-TBC daily casual player who just enjoys being a badass with a big 2H-er (please don’t judge me!):
I like the holy power system, it gives the pulse raiser of ‘do I have enough health to lay a massive burst down now or do I heal myself to last another rotation?’ choosing the former and surviving is a big thrill.
I don’t mind the horse but could do with a rework - it maybe has a conditional use - out of combat it lasts longer so I can catch up to the group and in combat it has a shorter AOE mitigation duration instead?
If you don’t give us a speed boost, I would love the feel of when I do finally get to the next pack of mobs, my first hit feels like it is making up for lost time / dmg and everyone knows it - kind of, ‘‘ahh, the Pally has turned up then!’’.
I found recently that if I’ve died, its been down to either getting carried away and missing a heal, or frankly not knowing the mob’s moves. Never really thought it was broken though (although does feel less healy than SL).
Hope this helps in some way 
Rteribution should receive seals back. They were the core identity of the spec.
This Holy Power system without the seals make the Paladins feel like an useless Rogue.
LONG time high(er) end PvE ret main here. Whilst I don’t assume feedback will be taken onboard except when an overwhelming majority have mentioned it (e.g. Divine Steed; please remove) I still feel optimistic enough to share my thoughts here.
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Button Bloat:
The core rotation of Ret is fun and interactive enough that including more core builders is not necessary. However, the Dusk and Dawn buff maintenance mini-game is an incredibly fun addition to the spec that becomes significantly more irritating without a 1p builder like Crusader Strike. So, as much as I hate CS I doubt its going anywhere anytime soon, especially given its interactions in the generic class tree.
With that said, we don’t need consecration to be core to our rotation and we don’t need Exorcism back in its current form. They are just bloat. In an ideal world I’d like to see CS replaced by Exorcism with a 6-8s CD baseline and either no DoT component or a very short DoT component (3-6s, giving us an interesting haste breakpoint). This, in addition to Judge gives us our 1p builders that allow us to interestingly build up to 3 and 5 HP to play the DtD minigame without being overly punishing. Again, I don’t expect this though given CS has interactions in the main class tree and thats likely outside the scope of work. If we can’t have a meaningful version of Exorcism just remove it.
Another key consideration when it comes to rotational bloat is the inability to use our Utility. With so many short CD, multi-charge spells there is no time to properly use it, or our healing, without sacrificing DPS. More on this later. The pacing should be slightly faster than that of feral, but incorporate that design philosophy - where there are empty GCDs that are not costing DPS and invite in min-maxing through utility and offhealing.
Also just ditch seraphim already, its boring and doesnt line up with anything for any of the specs at 45s.
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Stacking Modifiers: Not much to add here, you guys have hit the nail on the head. It feels tragic to play this spec without CDs or when they don’t align with the encounter. Honestly, even builders feel kind of meaningless when they’re not buffed by a passive talent or crit. If I wanted to play a fire mage and afk till Pyro is up I would just do that.
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Survivability: Please do not remove Bubble. It is an invaluable raiding tool and immunes are always useful if not necessary. However, give it interesting nodes that allow us to tailor it. When that immune isn’t necessary let me reduces its power and reduce its CD more in line with that of a normal defensive. 2.5m CD with a 50% shield wall isn’t game breaking. The numbers can be tuned but you get the idea. This would also stop the incessant crying for Divine Protection. However, lets be clear, Shield of Vengeance needs to change. A flat barrier is not the kind of CD compatible with modern WoW PvE needs or encounter design, and in certain environments encourages degenerate gameplay. Sacred Shield returning is a great alternative, though I fear it will leave rets in the same situation as hunters (and Exhilaration, a similar CD, is just as poor for them). Either way, we need a decent short CD defensive that isn’t a flat barrier on an awkward timer, or a 20% DR on an even more irrelevant timer. Skim away self healing if you fear over budgeting on self sustain, perhaps by giving us a talent that multiplies healing on others.
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Manoeuvrability: Yeah on the one hand, its like, why not? Rogues are tankier than us anyway and have access to better, more numerous and better designed defensives. There’s clearly no baseline ‘budget’ for survivability vs movement. Nevertheless, movement is obviously not why I picked up this class and I appreciate the stance and controlling of expectations.
So, first things first, remove divine steed. Its so painful to play, the animation is not cool, we clip on random things and don’t fit into certain places etc. EVEN IF YOU KEEP ITS FUNCTIONALITY, CHANGE THE ANIMATION TO A REGULAR SPRINT/SPEED OF LIGHT ANIMATION - OR AT THE VERY LEAST OFFER A GLYPH TO DO SO. If we are rolling with Divine Steed please make one, or preferably both, of its offshoot talent nodes baseline to the ability. Why am I sacrificing utility or throughput, or both, to have worse movement than every other class in the game barring DKs who are unstoppable, unkiteable, have ranged interrupts and unlimited slows?
Additionally, I would like to point to the design of certain heroes in Heroes of the Storm as to how we could balance ret movement. Namely Yrel and Tyrael. Yrel’s charged up leap attack - given we now have the functionality for charging spells a la Evokers - would be a perfect fit for Ret and paladins in general. Tyrael’s sword throw and subsequent teleport (on the GCD, or even with a 3s ICD between throw and port) would also suffice. I don’t think that ret should be constrained in movement, but using it shouldn’t be instantaneous or it should require some pre-planning. This creates the dynamic where movement is possible, but not reactive like Rogues or Demon Hunters. Making it telegraphed in PvP and proactive in PvE satisfies both design pillars here, Rets get to have half decent movement, but they are still not glued to targets/zooming around between mobs.
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Utility: I believe you are on the right tracks here, but you could do so much more if you committed real resources. Out the gate, stop making us pick between throughput and utility. If we have to pick, and I don’t believe we should, make us pick between Utility and other Utility. The choice between Sac or BoP, or Cleanse and Freedom etc. these are compelling choices rewarding making informed decisions based on encounter/dungeon familiarity and group composition.
Please also rework retribution aura, its awful and encourages degenerate gameplay or sacrificing my party/raids wellbeing by not running Devo. If Devo is going to be the defacto raid buff from palas then at least stop punishing me for using it.
Speaking of raid buffs, why is devo the buff we bring? Its not that good for a start, and it never ceases to confuse me as to why we don’t have a blessing any more. Just give us a Kings back, and tone it down to something like 1% main stat or one of the other buffs not yet brought. Just something that retains the flavour and usefulness of old Paladins. Giving us situational utility, like the addition of another bres, is not going to make us more viable. No guilds are planning or building rosters around the worst case scenario - they will just execute the harder strat with a better comp and practice till they don’t make the mistakes that could be rectified with our util.
Finally, make off healing meaningful. For the love of god, what is the point of having access to it. Lay on Hands is great, I’ll give the spec that, but Healing hands is not even playable half the time because you cant afford to take the node. I would really love to see some kind of throughput incentive for off healing, but only in conjunction with reduced button bloat. I want free GCDs to use my off healing meaningfully, and an old school feral bloodtalons type buff that will give me extra damage on my next spender or something meaningful to encourage me to do it. Make it a choice node so players dont have to play it and winge about using their entire kit if needs be. Hell, bring back inquisition but you apply it and build duration by off healing - BUT DO NOT MAKE ME SPEND HOLY POWER AS A NECESSITY. Reworking and attaching it to something like Selfless Healer (maybe with only 3 stacks instead of 4) would be a perfect opportunity to revive that talent.
Anyways, I doubt much of this will make an appearance, but I’ve been in love with this spec for well over 14 years now and I can’t help but inhale the Hopium. I hope some of this makes it in, and god bless whoever made Blizz actually look at this mess of a spec.
Lawbringer now deals 8%….or 5%….oh no 8% for sure after hotfix. Rework. Same people. What could go wrong 
PVE - M+
HP < 40% automatically activate shield of vengeance(on separate cd from shield that you cast, like druids Well-Honed Instincts), 2min cd ±
Activate wings reduce threat generation by 30%(more often than not when Paladin activate wings, it pulls aggro and dies and tanks cannot do much(or anything) about it and rotating bubble and bop not to pull aggro around wings is not the best practice.
Increase melee range by 2-3 yards
Divine protection and shield of vengeance as base skills so that you can rotate them.
GBOK(shield) and GBOW(mana reg)! A reason more to invite ret paladin. Healers would be more happy with GBOW and tanks with GBOK as well, these days when you invite one it doesn’t bring much beside wings aggro problem.
GBOK like shamans Elemental Orbit (one that you cast on tank AND on yourself), 5% max(your) HP every 10 sec ±
Follow up post because the talents have been data-mined. ofcourse this is very early, however I will still point out a big problem, mobility.
Hammer and Anvil While Divine Steed is active you radiate 2000 Holy enemy damaging all nearby enemies for 2000 every 2000 sec.
I’m sorry, but I don’t really like this. not because it’s barely any damage, but because the horse is still bad. There are way better ways to add mobility. There also have been no abilities data-mined to improve mobility. Pls bring back Long Arm of the Law and/or Persuit of Justice and consider removing Divine Steed completely.
wowhead article: https://www.wowhead.com/news/datamined-new-paladin-spells-on-patch-10-0-7-ptr-sneak-peek-at-ret-paladin-331271
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Would also be nice if Divine hammer was brought back. I loved that ability in legion.
Csnt see em doing it, they seem to attached to the horse idea sadly.
However. If those traits are anything to go by, it looks like their tunneling us into AoE dps omly?. I rly dont see alot of ST modifiers among that list at all.
2 different talents adding 2 targets to judgement?
I will be curious to the offical update to how much of this makes it to paladins beta.
Considering theyre saying we wont be close to rogue, and rogues only mid tier in regards to mobility, its pretty clear we are expecting to remain immobile.
CC breaks on charger is about the best we may realistically see.
They arent trying to mobility a whole lot. Im guessing just improving what we have, i do question how AoE focused those talents look tho.
Also the fact im seeing all the same abilities yet theyve mentioned removing abilities which dont rly need to be there.
Judgement hitting 4 targets, which makes one of our CDs basically baseline yet no mention of its removal.
Looks like BoJ is taking on a AoE role also. Im hoping the reworks larger then this though, we have waited 8 years to see the direction of paladin to change. Im hoping we rly do see a change of direction.
I want
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more offensive spells, spells are susposed to be a big thing for paladins and outside of healing abilities we rly see very little of it.
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charger to be given CC breaks so we atleast arent forced to swallow 2 CDs for 1 purpose.
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a look at returning seals and his cohesion with judgement.
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solid m+ and raid builds.
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some good synergy made in our kit.
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more impactful sustained damage options.
But we will wait and see to how that goes i guess, nothings confirmed til we see their first wave of patch notes, these datamined notes seem off in areas and info is defintly missing
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Change bubble to a proper defence, and make it undispellable, we need a reliable wall with lower cd.
But when is 10.0.7 coming out ? I’m not gonna wait months for i can play the revamp palladin
I could use the time to level another alt . I’m sticking to 2 characters
Already just don’t want to login anymore because of the lack of world quest on alts
Summary of my ideas:
A few i suspect are already considered based on some data mined spells
Survival
- Make divine protection and shield of vengeance baseline. Talents to upgrade their potency
- Talent choice node: On reaching 40% health you cast wog free. (Better PVE) or choose an absorb shield (better for PVP)
- Improved Divine shield - changes based on content PVE - DS automatically triggers when something would have killed you
PVP - mass dispell and war spell have chance to be resisted. This can be based on the ret palas current health percentage. Higher health more likely to be successful in dispelling DS. This will help when very low health more likely for divine shield to hold.
- Eye for an eye talent choice node - 30% physical or 30% magical reduction. + chance to send portion of magical damage back to caster (like old talent)
- A new ability ( high skill ability, possible PVP Talent) - Shield of no remorse: replaces divine shield.
You place a shield on yourself or a party member. They take 50% less damage for 8 secs.
At the end of 8 secs you cast an empowered ability. Based on the type of spell used next
E.g CC- Hoj range 30 yd lasts 6 secs and is undispellable
Repetence is instant and undispellable
Damage - 50% of the damage taken during shield of no remorse is added to your next ability as a dot over 6 secs
Heal - doubles power of the heal and healing on you for 5 seconds and ignores mortal strike debuffs
Mobility - doubles your speed and ignores roots or snares
Mobility
- Long arm of law or pursuit of justice return
- If keeping divine steed - breaks roots snares and is immune to such
- New ability Baseline- Touch of God:
Turns you into an angellic being and you leap through the air (max 30 yds) landing at your chosen spot. On landing (talent choice)
Consecrated ground - 90 % slow on all inside which degrades by 15% every 0.5sec to 0.
Angelic fury - stuns all inside for 3 seconds
Radiant fury - you radiate for 3 secs placing a dot on all targets that are in 5 yard range which lasts for 10 secs.
The rest of stuff looks like its been talked about alot already.
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This is a paladin wide issue, there is no mobility that holy or prot get that retribution doesn’t, please cover this as a class wide issue.
And no one asked for the mobility of rogues, no one ever has asked for that, we just want something thats better then a GCD bound horse when our only way to clear movement effects is on a GCD too.
We didn’t have the mobility of rogues in shadowlands when the horse lasted 6-7 seconds either, yet even when you put all your talents you can into the horse its still weaker then what the horse was in SL
I only just saw this, but was literally thinking the other day, about how clunky and un-fun Ret feels to play. And thats just to level, i haven’t really played DF that much. But the gameplay for Ret just has no fluidity to it at all.
I can’t stand the holy power mechanic anymore. It feels so outdated and dissatisfying. I have to use several weak, repetitive abilities to use one, what currently feels underwhelming spender.
And most of the time. I want to pull large groups, and to do that i spend about 2 minutes spamming Word of Glory on myself.
Honestly, I’ve played Paladin for most of my 16 years with WoW. You can’t tell me this is the first time you’ve realised the spec sucks to play.
And get rid of that damn Divine Steed. It’s so unimmersive and out of place compared to any other movement ability in the game. Our mount just appears out of nowhere and adds a huge graphic to our screen… it’s distracting and i think most people would prefer something more discrete.
Most of what ive said here is silly i suppose, it’s not big picture. But the general presence of the spec feels redundant, it feels out of place. We could forgive that if it were fun to play, but like I said above, there’s no fluidity, none of the abilities feels like that properly link together. It’s so unclear what ability comes next, especially when you get a proc.
And i can’t say i die too frequently myself. And while bad play can be attributed to the overall death rate of Ret Paladins, our damage just isn’t consistent. Outside of the burst, the builder / spender playstyle just isnt cutting it out in the world. Our best heal is Word of Glory, and we have to spend our damage creating resource in order to use it.
Why though?
How does a sneaky subtle class be more mobile than loud two handed wielding class?
Stealth is not a magical ability. It’s physical, they tip their toes and walk lightly unheard. They can sprint vs zealous light wielding knight. Who pursues enemies with fill conviction. Paladin should be a relentless perusing force. Where you can’t keep them of you. Looks to me devs unable or just don’t care about paladin role anymore as Liz said “ oh it’s a goodie two shoe class who cares”
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Neither should they need to spend three points in movement and still have way weaker mobility than some classes that just spends one. Not being the most mobile class is fine but having to spend three whole points and still be crap isnt good.
Should feel that the investment in a really stacked tree is worth it and atm it just doesnt feel like it is. Just cutting a point or two would go a long way for me.
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All seems good and well and I’m looking forward to the reworks. But nothing of this matter´s if I have to sit on that F… horse (Divine Steed) one more time, so give us a bear minimum of something else (long arm), anything actually.
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