It’s not one trope. If games were as onedimensional as you say nobody would still be playing them.
Arthas isn’t a goblin 
That is the beauty of WoW. You got both. Hairy dudes. But when you mog a plate-kini on them, they show that thong the females do as well. Perfectly equal. Perfectly balanced.
So what is it? Some sort of unknown force of nature? Something you can measure, like gravity?
An arena is a building full of people. And if those people create a “bad” atmosphere, its THEIR fault. 
It’s not some force of nature nobody can define !! It’s a list of people with first and last names. People you can kick out of the arena and impose consequences for their bad “atmosphere”.
By calling all that “society” all you do is remove responsibility from people. That’s it.
NO. Society creates nothing.
Individuals are racist, and should be put in jail. And INDIVIDUALS show up in the news and convince us (other individuals) that all men are evil misogynists…
I think we’re drifting far away from the original topic.
Whether we call it “society”, “a set of individuals”, “a cultural environment”, or anything else, that’s honestly secondary. We’re clearly talking about the same underlying thing: shared influences that shape how people perceive characters, stories, and representation.
So instead of getting stuck on terminology, I’d rather return to the actual point I was making:
positive male representation in WoW has become noticeably rarer, while female and non-male characters have gotten a lot of attention in recent years.
Again i’m not saying that’s bad, representation matters for everyone. But balance matters too.
When major male characters either die, disappear, or get rewritten into passive or traumatised versions of themselves, it creates an imbalance in the kind of role models the game offers. And that’s something worth discussing, regardless of what label we put on the cultural forces behind it.
I’m not blaming “society”, I’m not absolving individuals. I’m just pointing out a storytelling trend that feels one-sided.
That’s the core topic I care about.
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@Nylaris you are completely right. It is as you described, after Legion, there is a sudden change in this, but BfA is just the begining, I don’t know where are you at currently, so I don’t want to spoil it for you, but in general, the game is the same as other modern AAA ones, in terms of ideology becoming the content.
Unfortunately this is the future of the game, if you look at all those responses celeberate this change, to an extent that someone even call it a way to get back at evil patriarchy.
I don’t want to ruin the experience for you, but if you are not a supporter of modern, d.e.i. things, or simply don’t want these to be shoved into your face every 30 minutes in the story, then (according to my personal experince and foreshadowing) you will have a hard time. Obviously not every aspect of the game, but the major parts. I would speak of it more detailed, but I had so many “positive” experiance regarding to freedom of speech in this forum.
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Well it isent secondary you know?
- “Society” is an abstract concept.
- a set of individuals is a list of people with first and last name. Someone you can point your finger to.
There is a difference between:
- The green movement
And
- Greta Thumberg
You can point your finger at Greta. Say you disagree (or agree) with something she said on TV… Ect… You cant do that with a “movement”. If you start discussing an abstract concept, all you get are abstract things… Useless stuff.
And i mentioned the green movement to put something neutral as an example. But take “the market”. “Conservatives”. “Capitalism”. “Socialism”… All those abstract concepts which mean nothing and keep us wasting time.
In 2008 people talked about the market. If instead people talked about the 12 CEOs that were responsible for that… Maybe they would not have gotten away with it…
Cause we all blamed “the market” and “capitalism”. But the 12 guys responsible got 100M bonuses and are still there. Filthy rich and not rotting in prison.
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There’s a difference between criticism of homogeneity in writing, and homogeneity created by the reader’s interpretive framework.
Boiling something down to D.E.I and other misguided oversimplifications is just Post-hoc rationalization.
Individuals make it and then it exists and it shapes how people behave and what they expect and what they tolerate, what they repeat. when a bunch of people interact long enough thats what happens. That mix of habits that’s society. If someone’s racist that’s their problem, If an institution pushes misogynst garbage thats the people running it who have a problem.
Anyway. I’ve checked out of the whole circus.
Everything is fake and rigged and I’m mentally somewhere else. my mind packed a bag and left for some tropical island. Everything back here is burning in the distance. I’m under a palm tree thinking keep fighting over some dumb soceity stuff.
That was what I was trying to say earlier
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That last part cracked me up. I know that feeling😁
Well in a sense i am, after all, this Thread is about Inclusion. You get every Archetype in WoW nowadays, except that traditional Male Hero Type.
Except that you can though, the green movement is a collective of individuals who made a decision for something. Then it is real and not abstract and i can critizise it.
Except the green movement isn´t neutral by it´s very definition now is it.
Everyone here understood the basics of what i´m pointing at, so there´s no need to keep splitting hairs about semantics.
Therefore i´d like to get back on Topic and talk about young male individuals with first and last names, who also deserve characters in WoW to root for and to look up to.
No, it’s telling you to respect men’s spaces as men’s spaces. You’re welcome to join, but just respect it?
Wait, you actually think that the design of Night Elves were… designed with the goal of empowering women first and foremost? 
I think they do, and they’re fun, but in actuality they were designed as hot glossy women in bikinis with a strong will and a male backing as well.
They were made by men who wanted cool amazon warriors.
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Mens’ spaces by what definition? Arbitrary rules people internalized so they could continue with performative tribalism?
You’re disregarding the lore aspect and also missing my point.
Sure. But politicians can go to jail if they do nasty things. But if they are leaders of a party and do nasty things… it’s the “movement’s” fault and you cant put a movement in jail.
I mean… Exon Mobile destroyed a whole ecosystem. Their CEO got a bonus. Nobody went to jail. If YOU as an individual camp and do 1 fire in that ecosystem, even if it dosent have any consequences at all… you go to jail…
That’s what so unfair about… society… Abstract concepts have the same rights as individuals… but not the same accountability.
I agree with this. It’s just that people were blaming “society” for the lack of appropriate roll models. My whole point was that it’s not “society”. Its people with first and last names that pressure blizzard to make “girl boss” protagonists.
I don´t think this should be the goal, to basically say “if you don´t like it, just leave”. Why can´t we have both? After all the WoW Universe is vast enough to incorporate all kinds of Characters instead of Ostracising a part of the Playerbase.
Allthough Warcraft 1-3 was heavily Male dominated, cause i guess RTS Games don´t really appeal to Women, i think WoW was, is and should continue to be a Place for all kinds of People.
I get what you´re saying but i didn´t blame “Society” and just wanted to start an honest discussion about the state of the Game in that regard. In fact i don´t know who exactly is responsible for the current situation, who made the decisions for it to be like that. Therefore my only option is to adress the Community at large and indirectly Blizzard.
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The man cave stuff. Some god awful country song blaring in the background. A terrible ad shoving “buy our latest trimmer” in your face. You smell the toxic, big corp deodorant from a mile away.
The overdone stuff. It’s loud and desperate and just embarrassing.
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To be fair. The whole story of WC1 to 3 would not make any sense with more girlbosses.
I mean please… green orks barbarians on steroids with bloodlust? Would have been weird if it was some female.
But Tyrande was the leader of some matriarcal elves. Which makes sense. And Jaina was a mage. Not some warrior barbarian that goes toe to toe with an orc.
I get you… and agree 100%.
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Those are good, natural characters, not forced in. It’s just normal solid storytelling. The story works when characters act like themselves. But if Arthas suddenly starts acting weird and watch my little pony and teletubies it’s not storytelling anymore. That’s where it breaks.
It’s the same story over and over lately. solid characters get twisted into something unrecognizable
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Can definitely visualise a national anthem about like Gillette from this.
Be the definition that the original lore and game feel attracted mostly men, and the people who were attracted to that game shouldn’t lose it because someone else with completely different tastes comes along.
No.
You’re all very welcome regardless of who or what you are, as long as you respect Warcraft’s feel.
But even Blizzard is not, and it frustrated millions…
Not sure how I came off before but what I meant i guess you can tell the difference between someone forcing manliness and someone who actually is manly. That’s really all I was getting at. Maybe that’s a bit different from where you were taking the conversation but yea
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