The practicality is probably the crux, not the wishful-thinking.
Most classes have gone through some re-design since MoP. They’ve gained new abilities, talents, rotations, and so on.
They would lose all of that.
Some things are new and cannot be reverted to MoP. Demon Hunters. Guardian Druid. Allied Races. Hati. Heart of Azeroth. And so on.
And what about afterward? If Blizzard did revert to MoP, then what should they do in the expansion afterward? Wouldn’t they just evolve the design like they did in MoP, i.e. -> WoD -> Legion -> BfA? You’d end up right where you started.
You can’t just get MoP class design and then never ever change or add anything ever again. The game obviously has to keep evolving. There’ll always be new trinkets, new Artifact Weapons, Heart of Azeroth systems, tier set bonuses, and so on. Class design isn’t static. It evolves.
And when in MoP are you thinking about exactly? There’s a difference between patch 5.0 and 5.3…
You’re talking to the guy who doesn’t do Arena, as you always tell me. So in PvE terms how is this a better patch than 5.0? I’d wager that most PvEers would say that the glory period in MoP was 5.2 with the Throne of Thunder patch. Not 5.3.
It doesn’t really matter because class design has barely changed in that period of time. They mostly only did class balance changes, for example removing the ability for destruction warlocks to cast all spells while walking. Instead they made that talent allow warlocks to only cast their main abilities while moving
Okay. But it would have to change in the expansion afterward. There’s an expectation that Blizzard improves and does something new with the class design for each expansion.
So what would you do in the expansion afterward? Your “Revert to MoP class design” will only last 2 years after all. That’s not very long in the grand scheme of things.
Well, they’ve managed to keep proper class design all the way from tbc to MoP, and then they suddenly started coming up with the “less is more” logic by just mindlessly removing random abilites without putting a second thought into what they should keep and what they should remove.
They just need to get away from pruning completely. They can replace some abilities with new exciting ones, but not just remove a few abilities every expansion and expect class design to not get worse.
Vanilla, TBC, WotLK, and Cata are very different from MoP.
MoP introduced a new talent system. Dedicated specializations. Far more spec-specific abilities. Revamped the dispel mechanic. And if we are to stay in the realm of PvP – remade the DR categories.
If you like Vanilla → Cata, then you shouldn’t be fond of MoP.
Vanilla → Cata had the old talent trees. It had more class-wide abilities. Spammy dispelling. No forced specializations. Old DR categories.
Vanilla → Cata is the old-school WoW design that Blizzard just kept piling onto.
MoP → BfA is the modern WoW design that Blizzard have polished since then.
If you want to move on from MoP, then you end up with BfA again. You don’t end up with TBC.
Why would you end up with BfA? Blizz could’ve just as easily turned right instead of left and rather than remove 3-4-5-6-7-8 abilities and then closed their eyes hoping it’d work they could’ve done it properly. Take something away, replace it with something else.
Well what is BfA? In terms of game design, is it fundamentally different from MoP?
It’s not.
It’s the same.
The only thing Blizzard have done between MoP and BfA is, as you say:
Sometimes they seem to get lucky and people like it (yay Legion), and other times they get it wrong and people don’t like it (buuh WoD).
But in terms of design, then the structure is the same.
It’s the same talent system.
It’s the same forced specializations.
It’s the same roles.
It’s the same endgame character progression (cloak, ring, weapon, necklace…).
It’s the same ability design (single-target dmg, single-target heal, AoE damage, AoE heal, casted, channeled, melee, etc.).
Between MoP and BfA it’s just variations on a theme. The design is the same. Blizzard are just iterating on it, making small adjustments here and there. They haven’t changed anything fundamentally like they did between Cata and MoP.
The problem is that they haven’t. Destruction warlock for instance has not gotten a single new spell since MoP, (actually not true, cataclysm came in WoD) that’s 7 years ago. It has only lost spells, it has gotten the core resource system replaced by another one that makes no sense and made so little sense that Blizzard had to revert to a worse version of the old one.
This is the core issue, it is fundamentally the same which is why it’s so bad. Destro warlock plays exactly the same except when you take away 5 spells from that initial design without replacing it with anything it’s gonna be worse.
Good for you if you still enjoy your spec, but to pretend it’s the same across the board is disingenuous.
WoD class design was a downgrade, but at least the fundamental design that you speak of still made sense. At the start of Legion destruction warlock had no synergy whatsoever and the only saving grace was some of the legendary items which are now gone.
I agree with everything you said. And that is coming from a wotlk player. I do play BFA but it is oversimplified and not fun anymore. There is nothing challenging about playing your toon at the moment.
That’s obviously not true. Every class and spec sees some changes in every expansion. Some go through entire re-designs whilst others get smaller tweaks and adjustments. But no class or spec goes into a new expansion exactly as they were in the prior one. Blizzard adjusts from expansion to expansion.
The OP’s point seems to be that BfA is bad and MoP is great, but they’re the same in terms of game design. If you want different game design, then it’s everything that came before MoP.
If you just don’t like this particular variation of the design, then that’s less of a problem compared to having fundamental issues with the structural design (talent system design, combat mechanics, specializations, roles, etc.).
I didn’t say they destro warlock went in unchanged, it lost a bunch of abilities, had it’s resource system replaced by a worse one? Did you know destruction warlock was the last spec to hit legion beta, 2 weeks after the 2nd to last while all other specs came in clumps of 3. I’m not saying they had no idea what they wanted to do with the spec, but it seems like it and it felt like it.
If you’re here to discuss semantic then I don’t know why you bother. It’s pretty clear what OP meant and it seems like you’re being deliberately obtuse.
Yeah, but that statement doesn’t apply equally across all 36 specs.
Regardless, what you’re requesting is basically just an increase of buttons. That’s a smaller, more manageable order than reverting the entire class design to MoP. And I believe Ion Hazzikostas has implied that adding without removing is something they’re likely to do.
How are they completely different?
The talent system in BfA is the same as in MoP.
The only difference between then and now is that they’ve made it more spec-specific. And as said earlier, then that’s the design laid out by MoP in the first place. MoP introduced actual specializations. That’s the ground-work for the increased spec-fantasy that we have today. Before MoP you could be a Holy-Shadow Priest if you wanted. An Undead-Frost-Blood Death Knight tank. MoP introduced enforced specializations. WoD, Legion, and BfA have built onto that design – they have not changed it in any fundamental way.
But when there are 36 specs in the game, the general class game design doesn’t really stand and fall depending on whether you like the 1 spec you play.
With so many specs, the likelihood that Blizzard will screw at least a few up each expansion is almost guaranteed. And that was certainly the case in MoP as well. Never ever have, and never ever will Blizzard manage to make 36 specs that everyone likes and has no issues with.
The fact that people don’t like everything isn’t exactly something that should make the alarm bells ring.
The current state of class design makes me so sad. I really like this game, but class design just makes me not want to play.
I used to main a balance druid and a dk for years. Now I cant stand playing them anymore. I have tried to reroll to multiple classes/specs, but they are just that much fun. Cant enjoy the game when the class/spec im playing is extremely dull and not even the slighest way challenging… I really wish class design would return to MoP cuz that is without a doubt the expansion that had the best class design.
And thus in all the 14 years of WoW - I do not have a main. I have mulitple chars I play and try to find enjoyment in, but I just cant. GG wp Blizz
It kinda does when Blizz also creates alt unfriendly systems, Legion initially was clearly set up for you to stick to one spec. BfA is a bit better (at least you can change your spec), but still ultimately not an alt friendly expansion so if their goal was for you to reroll to a class and spec you enjoyed the mechanics around gear, essences and AP would’ve looked different.
I agree that they’re bound to mess up a spec or two or three when there’s so many, which is exactly why I’m here on this thread putting my opinion out there. The question is why you’re here trying to dissuade people’s opinion and tell everyone it’s all good?
I’m here to say that making everything the exact same as it was in MoP is pretty stupid when people’s actual grudge is just with a particular spell, resource system, or talent – not anything fundamental.
Like, imagine if you laid out all the Warlock abilities Blizzard have designed from Vanilla to BfA. I don’t know, let’s say there’s 100.
Are those 100 abilities fundamentally different from each other? Not really. They’re all just bread-and-butter WoW abilities. They’re different of course, and you prefer some over others, but they’re all just random Warlock-themed abilities that fit one of the various combat mechanics that exist (channeled single-target dmg, AoE dmg, instant-cast heal, etc.).
There’s no rhyme or reason to what players like in that regard. Maybe a lot of people happen to like the particular abilities they played around with in MoP. But that’s just coincidental. Design-wise they’re made with the exact same ingredients as all the other abilities that have ever existed in the game.